Where can I get basic mechanical training?

[MSN Member]

From: 70winnie 
Sent: 1/22/2005

This spring I intend to learn everything I can about the engine, transmission, etc. on my Winnie, so if it breaks down enroute, I can either try to fix it or understand exactly what the mechanics tell me.

Right now, I know very little about auto repair.  I change my own oil, and have changed my brake pads in the past, but that's pretty much it.

I understand that cars these days are much different than our old Winnies -- everything now is controlled by computers and other high-tech electronics.  Surely, the things they teach in modern techincal schools are different from what I'd need to know about my classic.

So my question for all of you is...

How the heck can I go from novice to expert without moving to Virgina and looking over Dave Denison's shoulder every evening?  Can you recommend any books that would be particularly helpful?  Any other ideas?

[Oz]

Sent: 1/22/2005

Being in the same boat as yourself (automotively challenged),  my suggestions are these:

First and foremost... GET THE ORIGINAL MANUALS!!!!
They are invaluable.

Second, use the Message Search often.  The knowledge of Dave Dension and so many others is archived there.  CW has been blessed with many, many experienced people who have always come to the aid of those like us and their contributions are now readily available through the Message Search.  When you research topics, copy the posts and print them for reference.  You will often find many gems of repair and maintenance which augment the Manual procedures or are better, faster, or easier.

Third, get to know the Resource Section links like, Smart RVing.  So many topics are covered in these links.  I learned the principals and found all I'd need to know about absorption refrigeration after another member pointed me in that direction.  The same resources are there for electrical, charging, battery systems and so more.

[West coast redneck]

Sent: 1/22/2005

Novice to expert eh.!Good luck.If I were you I'd just get all the manuals you can find for your rig including furnace, fridge.motor,& whatever else you can find.As the years go by different things happen & you reserch it & fix it. As you know there's an incredible whelth of knowledge out there at this website. Use it. ! Take care eh..78 brave,D21

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 1/22/2005

Have to have the books.Beyond that,when something doesnt work like the book says it does,you will find the answer on the internet.I met a few VW techs who are like having a VW shop in your back pocket for the modern systems,where answers in books are useless troubleshoot trees far removed from reality.
Dodge answers are all over the net.
House systems pretty generic,plenty online sources for  those too.
You dont need to be an expert ,if you can turn wrenches the experts will share all  you need to know.
If you cant turn wrenches for whatever reason,just find out what youre talking about when theres a problem so you can assess if the mechanic is honest or yanking your chain.That knowledge is very important when its time to get paid work done.
BooBoo

[MSN Member]

From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 1/22/2005

70winnie, here is the best advice I can give you about working on old Winnies:

LEARN THE BASICS OF DIAGNOSIS

Learn how to read spark plugs, learn the symptoms of problems, and learn to "jury-rig" when you have to.

The color of a spark plug will tell you volumes about the health of each individual cylinder.  The smell of the oil on the dipstick will tell you whether or not the head gasket is blown, valve guides are leaking, or the rings are shot.  The smell & color of the tranny fluid will alert you to virtually any tranny problem.

These are skills that, for the most part, are not taught in vocation mechanics courses; the emphasis there is on computer diagnosis -- they almost totally ignore the basic diagnostic skills that used to be a good mechanic's "stock in trade".  Once you learn those skills, you can work on virtually any vehicle.

John

[MSN Member]

From: 70winnie
Sent: 1/23/2005

Yes, I do hope to get the manuals for mine, but so far I haven't even SEEN one offered on eBay or moparmanuals.com for a 1968 P300, which is what the VIN decoder tells me I have.

And John, yes, I would LOVE to know all of the things you mentioned.

What I'm looking for is a resource -- a book, a school, a private tutor -- that will teach me, starting from the most basic concepts of automotive operation and construction.  Sure, I can scan thru the threads on this site and pick up bits and pieces of valuable information, and I'll no doubt do that once I've reached a certain competence level.  But what I really need first is the "big picture," in great detail.

Anyone have a recommendation for how to get that?

[Oz]

Sent: 1/23/2005

I'm sure you do a web search and find a wealth of books on basic automotive principals.  Choosing the best one for you would really be the challenge.  When I had my '75 Karmann Ghia, I recall finding a book called, "Fixing and restoring your Classic VW for Dummies" or something close to that.  It was perfect!  It assumed you knew abosolutely nothing.  Which was right on the money for me.  Maybe there's a similar one out there like, "Automotive Repair for Dummies" or something.

Of course, the best teacher is practical experience.  Depending on your situation, if you can find a local mechanic who does work on pre-gadget cars, you might approach him to see if you can "lend a hand" doing repairs a few hours a week in exchange for the knowledge.  Just a thought.

[Lefty]

Sent: 1/23/2005

There are Technical schools in almost every state that offer various automotive related courses. For example, Here in B'ham we have Wallace State, that offers auto mechanics,truck driving,truck repair,auto collision
repair,etc... You might can see if the schools in your area have courses that you can take "ala carte'" , that way you can take just the ones you want, no grades,for personal enrichment. Also, Alabama has a law allowing seniors (55+) to take any course they want, At state run colleges and junior colleges for "personal enrichment" at no cost (ie: no tuition or class fees). Provided there is room in the class. The classes do not count towards a degree,are not graded,and you must pay for your own books or lab fees (if aplicable) But what a deal!! If you are a senior, you might want to see if your state has a similar program. Lefty

[MSN Member]

From: Derrek
Sent: 1/23/2005

A good place to get a good description ( and many times a graphic animation) of how various components work is by going to www.howstuffworks.com under the automotive section. Once you go through the components (engine, transmission, differential, etc) you will have a better understanding of the "big picture".

[Cooneytoones]

Sent: 1/23/2005

70W......One of the first things a good auto mechanic will have is a reference library....A good one to start with is they make a series of books "RV and Trailer Repair"...it has all the workings of a home on wheels...all systems that are in an RV...how the systems work and how to trouble shoot them.....ie: electrical, plumbing, etc. Also as far as engine repair, a Chilton's Repair Manual is a good place to start and a good mechanic wouldn't be caught without one...Chilton's make repair specific manuals for Years and models....You'd want a Dodge Truck Manual for your specific year......Keep searching eBay....Also keep looking for Motor Home Chassis Dodge Service Manual specific for your year and the parts catalog for the same...they will turn up.......like suggested before, a General Automotive Repair classes are given at state colleges,  adult Learning Centers, Community Colleges, etc. in Indiana we have Ivy Tech that gives a course several times a year the cost is around $75 including all your books. And now on the net, info here is only limited by the time you can spend looking... I have loads of articles, part places, all saved to favorites, in a folder  RV repair......Here's a series of good articles that will get you going....
bart.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/tech.htm
The 12 volt side of life is a really good one.....
Like John (HeavyHaulTrucker) said, Learn how and what makes it work and you can fix it....Just having the know on how it works, like BooBoo said...will keep you from getting ripped off by some of the Mech-con-ics, and Tech-con-ics that are out there, just waiting for you to drive in and sell you a muffler bearing, a hub cap alignment, or grease your sphincter valve...I had one tell me my fuel injector ( on a 85 Chevy) needed to be rebuilt, and the kit cost $200 bucks...and about $100 for labor.......yeah right!!! A Chevy dealer ( on that same vehicle) tried to charge me $65 for a PCV valve, plus $27 labor to install it. The service manager was a good catch.....I pulled out the PCV valve and threw it too him and told him to keep it....put the old one back in, got a new one at Wal-mart for under 2 bucks. For a tune on a Ford Escort by a Ford Dealer was $459.00 on a 4 cylinder for plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, air filter, and fuel filter I told my friend he was getting ripped off.......   Cost at any auto parts store would have been about $50 or less buying the best parts made at retail prices, and about 1 hour of his time to turn the wrenches......He paid the dealer to do it, because he didn't know a thing about vehicles. That dealer is now out of business thank God...So learn all you can, it'll save you much more than the cost of the books.
Timmy

[MSN Member]

From: 70winnie
Sent: 1/23/2005

I once had a Toyota dealer try to charge me $85.00 in parts and labor to replace a fog lamp.  But I think we had this conversation before.

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 1/24/2005

Andrew,
There's lots of help Everywhere. There's nothing hard, manuals are a plus. Knowing what each noise is (or should be) is a plus, but, your only going to find out what it is AFTER it happens!

The worlds most obvious troubleshooting principle:
(you may have heard of this before)

K.I.S.S. .... (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) (not referring to anyone in particular at all)

Here are some examples:

"A "clunk" should be a bad u joint, not a busted ring gear or a bad transmission"
"A "light tap" should be a lifter or push rod, not a Rod Bearing"
"If the gauge doesn't read oil pressure, it's probably the gauge"
"If the wheel falls off, it's probably because you didn't tighten the lugs, not the King pin shearing and letting the spindle go."

Many mechanics have, for years, made Mountains out of Molehills while not observing the KISS rule. The rule is pretty simple: What's wrong, and whats the least expensive/time consuming/simplest possible culprit? I would say that over 90% of the time, it's the simple, forgotten, and overlooked thing that is wrong. What scares everybody is the mis belief that Vehicles are so complicated to repair. They're not. If you're willing to get dirty, and get some decent (not necessarily expensive) tools, you can fix anything on almost any vehicle, from the biggest trucks (like Winnies) to the smallest motors (like lawnmowers and generators!) It doesn't take rocket science, magic, or even a sphincter muscle. It just takes persistence, and practice. (of course the sphincter is nice to have, rather than having it stretched out by some shop...)

Another note:
Most mechanics today are "parts changers" all they ever do is what the computer, or their  boss tells them to do. If they actually stumble on to something else, you will just be charged more, but the "mechanic" didn't really learn anything in his stumbling, the next car, his computer or boss will tell him, yet again, what is to be done, not what is wrong.
So with that in mind, if you can change any part, and reasonably check it to make sure it's bad, you can be a better mechanic on your own, than you'll ever find in a shop.

With decent "factory" service manuals (Chilton's and Haynes won't help you on a motorhome...) and all the resources here on CW, you can become proficient very quickly.

Besides that, you should still have my phone number... and I'd be glad to help you anytime!

Tom

P.S.
NOW DON'T EVERYBODY OUT THERE START BASHING ME! I SAID "MOST" MECHANICS, NOT "YOU", OR YOUR "MECHANIC".

[MSN Member]

From: 54PrairieSchooner
Sent: 1/26/2005

Andrew: Amen to all of this..I'm not an expert mechanic, but I've learned over the years to observe Tom's KISS principle...for engines...spark, fuel, air, compression...all the essentials needed for internal combustion.  I once had a late 80s Chevy...electronic engine controls, etc. of course. It spent a month at the dealership undergoing repairs because I could not get the car to go over 5 mph without choking down.  After replacing nearly every electronic sensor or control on the engine, I asked them to ensure it was getting adequate fuel..they remarked "that can't be the problem"..after more diagnostics, they finally checked the fuel pressure and found it to be too low to sustain speeds above idle...bad electric fuel pump.

You might invest in some simple engine diagnostics tools for..a vacuum gauge, timing light, tach/dwell meter and a carb adjustment tool for your mixture screws, plus a simple voltmeter and test light (for continuity in a circuit).  These will help you test the basics....if all parameters are set up correctly and the engine does not run well, then you can dig into more detail..e.g. compression tests, etc. I just installed a vacuum gauge in my dash for "on board" diagnostics and general engine health, but then again, I did it because the gauge looks cool and I am a wannabe airplane pilot, so need my instrument panel to look like a DC-3!

R/John

[denisondc]

Sent: 1/26/2005

I don't think you will ever find a manual for a P300. Just get one of those for the M300 - both the dodge motor home chassis service manual, and the dodge motor home chassis parts catalog. Though they say the coverage is from 1969, there would not have been very many changes.
And a very good way to learn how things go together is to take them apart. One of the good things about stripping a parts vehicle, is that if you snap off a part, you haven't disabled your prime vehicle, just the parts source.
I would say that I learned most all that I know from 3 sources. 1. Just doing it, though it may take several tries to get it back working again.
2. Asking people who have done similar work on their own toys (I mean hobbies).
3. Reading manuals - not just the ones for your vehicle, but any dealing with similar vehicles. Then reading them again.
A fourth source, is volunteering to help another person fix a vehicle.
You will probably reach a point where you are so frustrated or disappointed about your vehicle problem that you are ready to cry. Then when you solve that problem, you will have a feeling of accomplishment and a sense of satisfaction that money cannot buy.

[MSN Member]

From: nvdesertrat0775
Sent: 3/3/2005

Like most posts here, all very good advice!  For what it's worth, when I first starting finding out RV's weren't exactly like my old Chevy, I not only printed out all the various details and instructions, but I built myself a notebook to take along on trips.  That way, should something break out on the road and I had no experience with that particular part, I could still open the notebook and at the very least have a starting point and a few guidelines.
  I've admired Phred's Stuff {Smart RVing} since I first read it, and most of my notebook came from his site.  The remainder came from THIS site and from the notebook paper [school paper] I included in the notebook.  That way, if I do something -right or wrong- I'll write it down and next time be able to refresh my memory.  I divided the notebook up into sections, much like SOB has done to this site, with blank sheets for comments at the end of each group.
  As for the Manuals... just for comparison... I have a LOT of them:  The 1973 Brave Owners Manual; RVer's guide to Solar Power; Chilton's Winnebago Motor Homes[1968-1974]; RV Electrical Systems; Dodge Motor Home Chassis [1973-75]; Bob Livingston's RV Repair & Maintenance Manual'; The RV Handbook {Essential How-To Guide for the RV Owner}; Haynes Dodge & Plymouth Vans [71-99].  And I agree The Haynes is probably the least informative of any.
  I also wholeheartedly agree with dennison on the value of tearing things apart.  I've gone into the local Pic-n-pull auto parts salvage yard just to take something apart and see if I could put it back together.  It's a great way to get experience at very little cost.  The salvage yard doesn't care if you pull a heater core out, and they don't care if it takes you two or three hours.  They don't even demand that you then buy it.  And you might even save somebody a lot of time & trouble, if they happen to want that heater core after you've taken it out.
  One thing for sure... you know where to come for answers, if you run into any problems.

[angrybreadbox73]

also you might wanna try a class at you local vocational school because that is where
i first learned the basics of repair and most do offer adule ed classes

[RV Mech Tech]

70Winnie - (here's a late post to this topic)  as another suggestion for reference material try and find out where in your State that vehicle technicians get their training- if its a community college or training facility see if they have a bookstore and see if you can go in and purchase any training material - same as a high school bookstore- these books will be the training manuals for the mechanics - some of them are expensive but well worth the cost if they provide you with the info you need to do your own repairs - also try the internet sources for a general search for general training material - I did this recently with the electrical trade material and lo and behold I found and was able to purchase the electrician training manuals for residential electrical work.

[LJ-TJ]

 Hm?  There's only one way to learn what you want to learn and that's by wrenching on your rig yourself. You have come to the right place to start. Depending on the rig you have all the information you need to find out is available here, manuals and all. I don't believe there is a question you can ask that you can't find the answer right here. From what I've see to date, even with the knowledge you currently have you probably know more about your rig than any mechanic you'll find and your a lot richer for it. As you'll read there are more crooked mechanics out there than you'll find honest ones. You know what I'm talk'n about guys. I'm not painting them all with the same brush just most of them.