King pin bushing wear

[denisondc]

Sent: 5/12/2003

I hope members can assist me in learning about average kingpin/bushing wear Recently I jacked up the front tires of my 1972 D22 off the ground to measure the play in the kingpin bushings. Rocking the wheel in and out at the top, I measured how far it moved with a ruler laid on the ground under it. It moved 3/16th inch, of which almost 1/16th was wheel bearing play. You have to push hard - the items you are moving weigh almost 200 pounds. Both sides seemed about the same. My winny has almost 90k miles, the tires are 750-17. I would like to know what results you folks get, and would also like to know the miles your RV has on it, and the tire size. This applies only to those winnies with the beam front axles - if your RV has independent front suspension, i.e. with ball joints, the play should be Zero. denison

[salplmb]

denison, i just took my 73 Indian d22 in to have my king pins checked by a good mechanic who has done a lot of these king pins. the way they checked the king pins was to jack up one side of the rig so the tire is about a inch above the ground. then take a long heavy crow bar put it under the tire so that you can pry up on the bar. you need someone else to help so you can lay under the front and watch the bushing. if there is any movement in the king pin they are bad. any side to side movement is bad. my front end has a shake in the front sometimes when i hit a bump or the road is smooth. go figure . if the road was a little rough i would not notice it. the mechanic showed me the bushings and there is not supposed to be any play in them at all. he told me that the factory bushings are derlin but replacement have to be bronze. they have to be pressed in and reamed for proper fit. so unless you have the heavy equipment i would find someone to do it for you. i have a service manual for the 73 chassis and it says the same thing also about this procedure. i asked about the play because mine had very little play in the wheel when jacked up and checked like you did. i though it would be o.k. with a little play. he told me there should be no play at all and because the factory derlin bushings are more forgiving that they tend to last longer with less maintenance but the king pins should be greased every 3000 miles or they will start to wear out. something i did not know. i thought these things were pretty indestructible but was wrong. its because of the weight that even a very small amount of play can be very destructive. also that is why he said even with the rig jacked up and forcing the pin with the pry bar that we are only putting very min. forces on front. while he has the front apart I'm having the front rotors turned and the tie rods replaced. this stuff has to come off anyway so saves some money and effort later. cost is $850.00. seems like a fair deal for the amount of work involved. be sure to check both sides because i thought i only had a problem on the drivers side because thats the side i had felt shake but the passenger side was almost as bad. the wheel bearing were contributing to the problem on the drivers side. sorry about the long post. hope this helps.
sal

[mightybooboo]

Sal,
Sounds like an honest amt to pay for the work you are getting. 
Boo

[denisondc]

I was hoping you could tell me how much your front wheels moved in-and-out as they were - before the new kingpins/bushings were installed. With the play I have My RV is fun to steer, the tires are wearing evenly, I have no shimmy, and until it causes me trouble or fails our annual state inspection, I don't plan to do other than greasing often and maintaining the toe-in. However I will be seeking a 1.2 inch expandable hand reamer in the meantime - my own reamers aren't big enough. Delrin is an acetal plastic product that reminds you of nylon, but is tougher and more slippery - so it makes good low speed bearings. I wonder why you cant replace the original delrin bushings with new ones of the same material? If they have last this long, how bad can it be? denison

[MSN Member]

denison,
most of the reverse elliot[i-beam] axles with that gvw have steel backed bronze or all bronze bushings. as long as the pin is tight in the beam and you don't wear through the spindle bushings into the forging of the spindle, drive it as long as you can tolerate it.
if you do opt to repair it, the king pin bores of the spindle have to be align reamed and honed with a special tool. Sunnen makes this type of tool and most automotive machine shops have it. you want those suckers as true as possible and with just enough clearance so you can just barely push the pin through the new bushings by hand.[@.0005-.0015 max slip fit]. when you reassemble put the thrust bearing in with as many shims as possible this keeps everything aligned with your front end also. #

[salplmb]

denison, the play in the front right drivers side was about a 1/4 inch from side to side. thats grabbing the wheel roughly inline with the tilt of axle. the play in the up and down between yoke was about 3/8 inch. the play on the left side was maybe 1/16 inch. side to side and about 1/4 inch up and down. like i said before it was really noticeable on the right when i hit a bump at between 30 and 50. otherwise rig road really well. tire wear was fine and steered very well with no pulling to either side. surprisingly to me. hope this helps a little.   sal

[MSN Member]

My kingpin play is about the same as yours - 3/16 in and out at the top of the wheel, at 90k miles. I just keep things very well greased, and my toe-in adjusted to the larger end of the range given in the service manual. My tie rod ends are snug, so is my drag link, and my steering box is adjusted for the slight preload it is supposed to have. Before I would give it new kingpins, I would try spinning the front wheels, to look for a bent wheel, or a tire out of round, or even not bolted down evenly due to something caught between the hub and wheel. To do this properly you should do it right after you have gone for enough of a drive for the front tires to be slightly warmed up - 5 or 10 miles. This will eliminate the effect of the tires taking a set from sitting. If the tires arent balanced then getting that done would probably help. You could also try a pair of the rear wheels in front. If the toe in is correct the tires should be running with most of the side loading off of the kingpin bushings when going in straight lines. Then I would ensure the steering box bearings were preloaded, and its support bracket bolts torqued down. All this is probably still easier than doing kingpins. If the shimmy is still there I would closely check that the U bolts are not loosened, that there isnt a cracked main leaf, that the spring shackles are not allowing sideways movement.
I personally would try doing the kingpins myself, being cheap, but then I have two equally needy winnebagos, with the same size pins, and have done kingpins on old Ford F1s, an F7, and a couple of prewar heavier trucks. They ranged from easy to -I give-up-. And you need a decent place to work on it. If you get to where you hit a snag, you can still unbolt the axle from the frame, and lug it in to a front end shop anyway. You will save some of the labor cost. I had an annoying shimmy that turned out to be caused by a tire whose tread was delaminating from the carcass - and in all the times I looked at that tire, I didn't see the result - a lozenge of shallower tread wear - until the wheel was off the RV and a guy at the tire place pointed it out to me. The tire was definitely not new. A new tire eliminated the shimmy totally.
I have a copy of the N. Carolina School Bus Inspection Manual, found it on the internet - which I figure is fairly conservative, and for vehicles similar in size to mine. They say the limit on kingpin wear is if the tire can be moved in and out 1/4 inch at the top outer edge of the tire. The www.daytonparts.com web page has some tech info on steering, and they say the in and out movement at the edge of the tire tread should not be more than 3/8 for 17 inch tires. So I figure I am not too bad off yet. My vertical play - in the thrust bearing-, is about 1/16th inch on both sides. Good luck denison.

[Myk-dK]

  On my last trip last fall I noticed a shake in the front suspension, (just a few times in 2000 miles). On my first trip this year (150miles) ,It shook violently every 5 or 10 miles. The shake felt like the tie rod ends were very badly worn, & would happen usually exiting a turn if there was a slight dip or bump. Once it started  I had to slow to 30 mph to get it to stop, hitting the brakes hard for a moment or just lightly riding them would not help, nor would swerving the steering wheel.  Ive drove vehicles with real bad tie rod ends before  & usually 1 of the above methods will stop the shake (Jabbing the brakes or jerking the wheel usually works the best).
I checked tie rod ends, wheel bearings, steering box, & tires, all are fine.  The kingpins are the culprit!  The play is about  an 1/8"to3/16" side to side at the top of the wheel, & maybe a 32nd of an " up & down. (not as badly worn as SAL's but way worse symptoms)  btw I am running 8X17.5 radials & my rig has 57000miles on it.

I am not sure if I should do the kingpins my self or not (id have to locate a reamer),  any body have more info on doing the king pins themselves etc. Huh?
Mike dK

[Myk-dK]

Sent: 7/12/2003

  This thread  follows up on Denisons thread  Kingpin Bushing Wear-1 & to some degree Winnie goes a Drifting & front end shake.
I checked everything that Denison mentioned in his last post (message Cool, except I didnt change tires front to back.(my toe in was just under a 1/16th but increasing it to 1/8th didn't help).
I ordered a king bolt kit from NAPA (#2621562) & it was the wrong one, I think NAPA # 2621465 may be the right one? The book that our NAPA dealer has is vary confusing as it lists D300 with 4500lb axle-also M300 = #2621562,  & then it lists P300 with 4500lb axle-also M300 = #2621465. I could not wait 5 or 6 days for them to order #...1465 from back east as we are getting company from OZ (The land down under).  I then went to another jobber who sells MOOG suspension parts(a devision of Federal-Mogul). They had a listing for M300 #8454N or #8454B (the last digit N or B, standing for Nylon (Delrin) or Brass. I also could not find a machine shop in this town of 25000 that could do the reaming, so I ordered the #8454N. I had already removed the axle as I thought that I was going to need to get it machined, but it was only the 4 U-bolts extra work anyway. Taking it apart was easy, first you take everything off the spindle(tie rod arms & brake backing plate and the little 7/16 taper pin that looks the kingpin in), then they just tapped out {there is a expansion plug (like a frost plug) on both ends of the King pin}, once you pound them out the kingpin  just needs a few light taps & its out. My old bushings where delrin & old pins had about .002 wear on them This is tough nylon!!  The bushings had some scoring on them from sand or grit, I think it is important to grease them often, mostly to keep the crud out than for lubing them. the new ones that I ordered were exactly the same as what came out.
The kit came with: 2 thrust bearings & 8 shims(.010) to eliminate the up&down play, 4 bushings, 2 kingpins, 2 lock pins (7/16 taper pins), & 4 expansion plugs.The new bushings just slide in by hand, then you put the spindle in there with the thrust bearing on top & put as many of the shims as you can get in there. Then slide the new kingpins in (just able to do it by hand), then pound the taper pins in, & tap the expansion plugs in each end.  You basically just use your hands to install these things! (& a hammer  for the look pins & plugs)!
Just for Denisons info I now have no up&down play on both sides, & no side-to-side play on the left side, the right side has less than 1/16th"  play side-to-side (just able to feel it but not able to measure it without a dial-indicator).
I put every thig together & set the toe in to 1/8th" & it was worse than before!! I then played with the toe in, 1/16th", 1/8th", & 3/16ths",   still worse than before!  I double & tipple checked everything (springs, shackles,U-bolts, steering box & mounting bolts, drag link, & tie rod ends) still worse than before I started.  Finally out of desperation I rotated the tires front to back (I noticed that the front ones were slightly sharp if I rubbed my hand across the sipes in 1 direction) & perfect no shake at all!  what I believe happened was the kingpins were worn & I had hardly any toe-in, this started the tires wearing & even tho I fixed everything the tires still had that pattern worn into them, thats why it still shook.  I've had tires do that before, its like they have a memory.
I took a few photos & will post them once I get the film developed & scan them (probably 3 weeks or so

[denisondc]

I thank you for the info.  I also found confusion in the Moog chassis parts book - seemed like I needed the other volume of a two volume set of parts listings all the time.    You have done a wonderful job of investigative archeology and reportage!  I had not thought about tires having worn to a pattern around the tire!  I know that the -un-driven- rear tires on a front wheel drive car can do that though.   Again - I thank you for the feedback.     denison   

[Myk-dK]

The MOOG book that the jobber had here was excellent, everything all on 1 page (the page before went back to the 40s&50s). It even had a dia. & length description, mine was .936 dia. & 6.472 long.
As for tires I have had problems on big rigs, If you bend a tie rod or something, & a steering tire starts to wear, you have run it out back for a long time before you can use it up front again.
My tires were not even feathered yet , not that you could see, just able to feel it by running a hand back & forth, the sipes were slightly sharp the 1 way. - mike

[gromit440]

Hey Denison,

Just took my Dodge M-500 in to have the steering arm to knuckle bolt tightened. How and why this was loose is a mystery. I noticed it coming off the NC mountains heading south for the winter as under heavy braking I would get a shimmy that I couldn't stop until I was slowed way down...sort of a harmonic shimmy of sorts. No problem while on level ground and tire wear is normal. Recently, while in our present camp Punta Gorda, I jacked up the front end and found the play in the steering arm. With the tools I have, I couldn't budge the nut in or out so yesterday I took the rig to Mr. Front End & RV Services Unlimited on Pascal Drive in Punta Gorda. They tightened the nut on the steering arm and checked the tow for $60 and I was in and out in a little over an hour.

Also, the front end man there had me look at about 1/8 inch play in both side king pins. He said to keep and eye on tire wear and to keep them well greased....I grease everything about every 2 to 3K miles. The main issue was to not let the king pin wear through the bushing and then wear on the I-beam or the knuckle. Big bucks repair if that should happen. I told the front end man I had the rig DOT inspected in NC when I bought the rig back in 2004 and the play was about 1/8 inch way back then.....about 15,000 miles ago.

So, it appears the info you posted indicating 1/4" play tolerance is correct, and, your suggesting greasing often is crucial to assure longevity of the king pin bushings is also VERY good advice. If and when I need the job done, I will try to return to this shop for the repair. They quoted a total price of $495 for a Kaiser "no ream" king pin kit and installation. The price didn't sound too bad considering the job and this shop impressed me with their professionalism, fair advice, and service. I noticed several of the customers having work done on their rigs were return customers as well.

I'm wondering if you replaced your bushings or are still using sight inspection and plenty of grease. My guess is a ton of money is spent on bushings that do not need to be replaced due to many front end techs not knowing the acceptable tolerances on our old Dodges.

Jeff

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Here is some handy Kingpin Repair Kit P/N information (Links to web sites (i.e NAPA) are included in column title):

Chassis		Dodge P/N		MOOG P/N		NAPA P/N		Stemco Kaiser P/N
M300/RM300		2275522		Brass: 8454B Nylon: 8454N		Brass: NCP 2621417 Nylon: NCP 2621452		K40D
M400/M500/ RM350/RM400		4026848 (2275521)		Brass: 8587B Nylon: 8587N		Brass: NCP 2621565 Nylon: NCP 2621564		K50D
M600/RM500		3780538		Brass: 8560B Nylon: 8560N		Brass: NCP 2621553 Nylon: NCP 2621529		K55D

Be sure to verify all kit parts are in the box when you buy it.  Had to exchange mine in order to get all the parts.

Dave

[xerofall]

Just to confirm, king pin Dodge part 2275522 is Napa part NCP 2621417 and is also part 8454B?

My mechanic is having a hard time finding king pins and asked to see how my luck is.

Searching eBay, I find this... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steering-King-Pin-Set-McQuay-Norris-KA224-/200834972229?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec2b27a45&vxp=mtr

Correct?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

M300 uses a 4500lb axle.  M400 and above use a 5000lb axle.

First understand there are brass kits and nylon kits.
Brass kit: (8454B, 2621417, KA1417) requires reaming with a special tool
Nylon kit: (8454N, 2621452, KA224) does not require reaming

I do not have the reaming tools so I used a nylon kit when I did my M400.

I just verified those 2 McQuay-Norris P/N's (KA1417 (Metal) & KA224 (Nylon) cross to Dodge P/N 2275522. So yes, according to the McQuay-Norris website, that KA224 kit is the correct one.

8454B & 8454N are Federal mogul (Moog) P/N's
2621417 & 2621452 are NAPA P/N's
KA1417 & KA224 are McQuay-Norris P/N's
STEMCO no longer produces the M40D kits for the M300 axle.  Only M400 and above

Dave

[Elandan2]

When we moved to Ontario last year, the garage doing the safety absolutely refused to use the nylon "floating" bushing in the king pins.  They said that it had to be replaced with brass in order to pass the inspection.  I had to supply the kit since they were unable to find one.  (I went to NAPA in Niagara Falls NY )  Although they are a truck servicing facility, they didn't do the reaming.  A mobile truck came and they reamed and fit the new pins and bushings.  Rick

[patriklprice]

I too have a 1978 chiefton 23 ft.  Does that year have king pins or ball joints?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

All Dodge Class A motorhome chassis have king pins

[Tubbydog12]

Hey Gents- Been trying to locate King Pin set for M400 '73 Winnie Indian- No One seems to manuf. them anymore, not any of the companies listed here- and ideas as of 2021? tried NAPA, Stemco, all of them...nothing...thinking I may have to get them machined special...EEEk

JL

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

The only thing I could find for Dodge P/N 4026848 is:

Vanhorn Truck Parts M-2372