Plumbing replacement & repair, PEX tubing

[70winnie]

Sent: 7/15/2004

Anyone who's been reading my progress report thread knows that I plan to soon begin work on the new fresh water plumbing system.  I've pretty much decided upon PEX tubing because Polybutene ("gray") reportedly has failure problems, PVC isn't acceptable for potable water, and copper is, well, copper!  Plus, PEX is supposedly most resistant to temperature changes.

My question, then, is not what kind of plumbing I should use, but if anyone among us has experience working with PEX in any environment.  If so, I'd appreciate any hints & tips you can provide.

I'm still undecided about using QEST-type (crimp) fittings or Flair-It type (compression) fittings.  With the cost of the crimping tool being over $100, and this being my only likely application, I'm seriously considering using the Flair-It style to keep costs down.  But I have bad luck with compression fittings, and a tendency to under-tighten or over-tighten them.

[Spudboy]

Sent: 7/16/2004

Andrew:

First: The WinnieBurnGo design is great. I am going to look at GIMP.com...It does not look too VW-like. There have been several other 'Burners' here, but they seem to have disappeared - Da Rat, being quite noteworthy.

Second: You project is huge. It is convincing me to leave my bathroom well enough alone! (Mine really sucks, since that's where the tree limb volunteered to lift the edge of my roof last fall.)

Third: I have used the clear-plastic tubing and hose clamps to replace the copper in my plumbing system. It is not perfect, but makes backwoods repair possible without special tools. I think flair fittings would be good as well, since you can find that stuff at the ACE hardware in Jackson Hole or Winnemucca.

I had a friend whose whole house was crimp-type and he hated it when he had to do repairs, even though he had the tool.

I stuck with hose clamps since I go off-pavement and find that homes on wheels do not do well after 40 to 60 miles of washboard - everything vibrates hard, and something always moves enough to blow a copper joint. When I find them, I cut them out and use the clear plastic tube and a couple of hose clamps (I carry about 20 feet and a dozen clamps). Eventually there will be enough tube to copper that vibration will be dampened by the flex in the tube!

Keep up the great work and diary.

-Spudboy (the verbose)

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Sent: 7/16/2004

Spudboy,
Maybe you should just bite the bullet and slip the clear tubing over all your pipes.  If the copper breaks it would already be sealed.    Sort of a built in backup system.

Dave

[70winnie]

Sent: 7/16/2004

Thanks for the plumbing advice, Spudboy.

GIMP (www.GIMP.org, not ".com") is a great tool although it is a bit hard to learn.  Definitely for those who have a bit of experience with manipulating graphics files.  I don't find the documentation very helpful, and the only book I've found on the subject is little more than a list of features.  Also, note that the Windows port (which is what I use) doesn't have all of the features of the original (Linux) version.  Oh, and it only crashes after you've done something you don't want to have to do again... so make sure you save your work frequently!

[melyash]

Sent: 7/19/2004

One thing Gerald at Overstreet taught me, if it is critical, spend the extra bucks and put on TWO hose clamps on each end. One may rattle loose but hopefully with two, they will last long enough to be seen as loose next time you stick your head in that area. He did that with all my tranny cooler connections. Also a bit of locktite seems a good idea on the clamp threads as well. Keep it off the PEX since who knows if it might react chemically or something.

Best of luck,

Matt

[Jlogue88]

Sent: 8/6/2004

I used pex on all of my water, feel free to ask any question or e-mail me I can post pictures too

[afield689]

Sent: 8/7/2004

I am about to begin taking out all my copper piping to replace all the lines with Pex tubing.  I would really appreciate any photos or tips you have for installing it.  My copper pipes are split in lots of places I can't get to, and Pex seems to be the best option.

Also, where did you get your Pex? The prices seem very different depending on where I look.  Home Depot is $33.00 for 100 feet.
Other places are as high as $55.00 for 100 feet.  Both are supposed to be 'hot/cold'
Any ideas?

Thanks again for any help or advice.
Alan

[Jlogue88]

 Sent: 8/10/2004 9:08 PM

Lowes

[70winnie]

Sent: 8/15/2004

I got my PEX from a mobile home & RV supply store -- the kind that uses this catalog:

http://www.go-rv.com/coast/do/chooseState

The guy there was very good at helping me piece together what I needed.  Installation itself was very easy, and I'm terrible at plumbing so it means a lot when I say that.  I used the compression-type fittings, which don't require an expensive crimping tool.  Just slip the fittings together, hand-tighten, then give a light turn with a crescent wrench for good measure.  Check out my photo album to see the results.

[MSN Member]

Sent: 8/16/2004

     I had to completely plumb my MH upon purchase.  I used the PEX pipe for flexibility and long life.  It gives in case you don't get all of the water out of the system before the first freeze of the year.  I'm not sure what the exact name of the fittings were that I used, but I can describe them.  They are gray, and you put the PEX into the end of the fitting and simply tighten with your hand.  That's it!!!  Great stuff, a little expensive (around $3-$4 for a "T" fitting) but well worth it.  I was going to use the compression fittings, but there were so many places that the crimp tool would not fit into.  So I thought that this was the best route, and I was not disappointed.

[Spudboy]

Sent: 8/25/2004

A word of warning: I hooked my lines up to the tail end of the old copper at the sinks and toilets. I have since had to epoxy the copper to the faucets and toilet foot valve to keep the copper in their fittings! I can't get to the actual units without destruction of the fixture due to the age of the plastic. All the bouncing on washboard has shaken the pipes loose and they leak. I can't wrench them tight due to confines and poor bite on the plastic. All of this is due to my cheap nature of insisting on keeping what I originally bought. The epoxy seems to be holding this season.

[bboat101]

Sent: 11/13/2004

Is the PEX tubing flexible enough to use right at the output of the water pump? I know Shurflo says to use flexible tubing at the inlet and outlet to isolate pump vibration.

brian

[Sea Hag]

Sent: 11/13/2004

The Plex should be OK . All of the fresh water system piping from my tanks to the fixtures are Plex on my 76 Chief I believe most of it is OEM .Although the pump has been converted from an air compressor system to a on demand shurflo Pump . Any of the flexible pressure pipping systems should be Ok as long as it's rated for enough pressure . Plex is just a brand name there are others out there ,at you local Home Center . Some need special tools to install it some don't Sea Hag

[70winnie]

Sent: 11/14/2004

Brian, I had similar concerns about using more flexible tubing near the pump but after researching the issue I concluded the the PEX is flexible enough.  Granted, I haven't actually used the pump since installing it, but I did run it dry for a few seconds when I first connected it to the battery and I could barely even hear the pump running.

ps- PEX is not a brand name itself, it's an abbreviation for "Cross-Linked Polyethylene".  The brand names are, for example, QestPEX, FlexPEX, DuraPEX and BESTPEX.

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 1/12/2005

All,
Not to bring up an old subject again, but:

I was very skeptical when I first saw it, but my entire 3 year old house is plumbed with QestPex (not the drains!). This stuff stands up to anything. It's easy to install (with the $100.00 crimper tool) and I'm using it in my Winnie, too. All of my plumbing fittings end at the fixtures in a Pex shut off valve and screw-on fitting, then into pex flex lines for easier repairs (the sinks, toilets,showers and tubs all have screw-on flex Pex pre-made hoses, even the kitchen squirter thing. Again, I'll do the same thing in Smurfbago. "Pex makes plumbing a breeze..." (a quote from the plumbing contractor who plumbed my new house). I'm glad it's QestPex. Now I feel cofident in my own plumbing, and I don't have to worry about leaks! The plumber also said the stuff lasts forever, and they have fewer service calls with Pex plumbing, than with copper or other plastic water systems.

Directions from shurflo state that cross-linked poly is acceptable as an inlet, and outlet piping.

Regards,
Tom 

[70winnie]

Sent: 1/12/2005

Since you brought it back up, Tom ... since my last post I did in fact run the pump with liquid in it (RV antifreeze, but I assume water would give the same results).  Recall that I have PEX running into, and out of, the pump.  After hearing how loud the pump vibration is, I've decided that this spring I'm going to replace the PEX going immediately into and out of the pump with something much softer and see if it reduces the noise level.  I'll report back with my findings.

[Sea Hag]

Sent: 1/13/2005

The pumps do vibrate more with liquid in them than they do dry when you first tried yours . I think most of the noise is resonated from the pump mounting screws to the body of the coach . Ive played around a bit with different torque on the mounting screws and found the less you compress the rubber isolators around the screws the less the noise . I plan to try to isolate the mounts a little more by adding some springs and rubber washers   . The more expensive sureflo's are suppose to be quieter but I'm too cheap to spend 3 times the price of the agriculture shur flo pump I bought for 60 bucks at a local farm and fleet store . Same model a PO had installed when the water system was originally converted to on demand pump system . Sea Hag

[jsn80]

Sent: 1/28/2005

Hello all,  I became a winnie owner just yesterday.  If anybody ever has any other questions about PEX tubing feel free to email me.  I work for a PEX manufacturer and would be glad to answer any questions.

jsn80

[70winnie]

Sent: 1/29/2005

Welcome to the list!  I have a question... why are the crimping tools so darned expensive !?!?  LOL

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 1/29/2005

Yeah, ditto what andrew said. I never paid that much for any other crimper. (and I've bought a lot of crimpers!)

But I can't live without it! My whole house, and the Winnie are in QestPex. So I bought the $100.00 thing!

Tom

[bboat101]

Sent: 1/29/2005

Andrew,
I had pex from the pump on and it did transmit some noise. I replaced it to the accumulator tank with the flexible -clear-reinforced stuff from a marine store and it's much quieter!
If you don't already have an accumulator tank, it really is a must. Without it, I had heavy pulsations from the Shurflo pump. Now it's nice and smooth! I made my tank from 3" PVC. Total cost was around $22.00 and it has more capacity than the ones you buy.

Brian

[jsn80]

Sent: 1/29/2005

It's too bad that they are that expensive, but it because there are only a few manufacturers and it is a specialized tool.  Some hardware stores offer loaners.  I've seen some pretty good deals on Ebay as well.

[bboat101]

Sent: 1/29/2005

I'm currently using the FLAIR-IT fittings and they work well. Not as cheap as crimp rings though. They are removable and reusable, too.
brian

[jsn80]

Sent: 1/30/2005

I've recently done some testing with a Shark-tooth fitting made by CASH ACME and was really impressed.  I'm not sure what the cost is, but it is extremely easy to use.  No tools are required, all you need is a square even cut.

[jsn80]

Sent: 2/2/2005

I was looking around some older posts and saw several comments about broken copper pipes.  I just wanted to add that PEX has a better freeze resistance than copper pipes (but not freeze proof).  There were also people saying that they made repairs with automotive heater tubing, not a good idea.  The best thing to do when replacing pipe is to use tubing that is listed with NSF.  They should be marked with NSF-pw, NSF 61 or NSF 14.  NSF certifies a lot of water products.  They test products annually for any chemicals which may come into contact with the water.  Just a few of my thoughts.

jsn80