Plumbing replacement & repair, PEX tubing

[HeavyHaulTrucker]

Sent: 2/16/2005

OK guys, I just landed in this conversation because I just had to do some repair on my cold water line under the sink (actually, I had to rebuild the damned thing!), and I used PEX -- and learned a few things about it.

It seems that the prior owner re-plumbed the whole coach with PEX -- but he used the QEST fittings.  That was not a good idea.  The QEST fittings are of a low quality, and are not very durable at all. All of the Tee's in the system developed cracks in the valley between branches that allowed the water to spray everywhere when the system is pressurized.  When I went on the Internet to try to match fittings, I found that the QEST fittings are NON-RETURNABLE and do not offer any sort of warantee.  The QEST fittings are all gray, and break very easy -- especially if over tightened.  That is what I think happened when the PO put in the new plumbing.

After thinking this over for a couple of days, I ended up using the copper crimp-style Tee's designed for PEX; Carlsbad RV Center let me borrow their crimping tool (which DID NOT cost $100!) to make up the little bit of plumbing I needed.  I think that the crimp-style fittings are better than the plastic ones.

For 70Winnie... the PEX fittings are really simple to tighten.  Just tighten them until they squeek, then tighten them 1/4 turn more -- that's it.

As for the crimping tool, it is nothing but a steel block with holes for the 3 major sizes -- then it is cut in half, hinged on one end, and a toggle bolt setup is mounted on the other end.  You assemble your fitting, line, and crimp ring the way you want them -- then just clamp the ring in the crimping tool, lock the toggle, and tighten it up until crimped (when you can't turn the wrench easily anymore).  You could have one made for about $20 or $25, or you could make it yourself if you have the tools.

John

[jsn80]

Sent: 2/16/2005

When you say the fittings are QEST fittings, I must only assume they are the grey plastic and very bulky compression fittings.  If these are it, yes they do lack in quality.  Yes they are my competitor, but those fittings are made from the same material that caused all of the fuss with polybutylene tubing (COX vs. Shell National Class Action Lawsuit).  I don't know why or how they still get away with using that material.  If you look on the fitting you'll probably see the markings AC, which stands for acetel.  The biggest problem with these is the lack of resistance to chlorine and since many people frequently disinfect there water system with bleach, it's not good on the fittings.

As for copper crimp fittings, though better, it's been my expierence that you will get better quality out of brass.  We offer some copper fittings, but the manufacturing process is not as precise as brass.

I have never used the block crimp tool so I can offer no advice.  One questing though, did they give you a crimp gauge with that?  A crimp gauge is just a simple go/nogo gauge to test if the crimps were completed properly.  If you did not get a guage and want to check your crimps, I could probably send you one to use.  Let me know.

Jeremy

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 2/16/2005

Jeremy,
All of my QestPex is in brass crimp rings. I don't care for the gray compression type fittings either. I do have points that convert over to copper thread, but even they are crimped. I like it that way. Makes me feel better about spending so much for the crimper! Darn right I'm going to use it every chance I get!!

Tom

[HeavyHaulTrucker]

Sent: 2/17/2005

Jeremy... I guess that explains why they failed... I didn't read anything about lack of resistance to chlorinated water.  The PO put them in just before he put the Winnie into storage, and it sat for a year until I bought it.  It has now been almost a year since then, and I guess they just bit the dust.

I guess I should have mentioned that the crimp rings were made of brass.

As for the block crimper, the one I used was set up so that you couldn't screw up... tighten it until it wouldn't tighten anymore and it was right.  It leaves a "tit" about 1/16" wide on each side where the brass has been pinched during the crimp.

John

[jsn80]

Sent: 2/17/2005

John,

It's funny, you found out that they are not returnable, but you did not find out why...

All crimp rings (at least ASTM standard) or copper, I was reference the fittings themselves....

And I'm not really concerned about you over-tightening  your crimps.  Just going by tightening until you can't tighten anymore is too broad for different people.  It takes a lot of pressure to make a proper crimp.  That is why a good design crimp tool is nice.  The handles add leverage and make it so much easier.  I am serious about the crimp gauge though.  It's just a flat piece of metal and would fit in a regular envelope.  It works for 3/8", 1/2" and 3/4" crimps.

Jeremy

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 2/17/2005

John And Jeremy,

That gauge came with my tool. Easy to use. Makes you feel better when you think you over or under crimped it! I guess it was worth it, although I could have improvised with some of the other crimper's I have, this one (from Lowes) works great and you can get it in even some fairly tight places (but only at a 90 degree angle).

If you over-tighten the crimps, then it's possible to fracture the crimp ring and end up not knowing you have a problem until you're bailing water out of your Winnie!

Tom

[jsn80]

Sent: 2/18/2005

Okay, I'll try this again.  I had this long response typed up last night and this lovely MSN wasn't working right.  I see if I can remember everything I was going to say.

First of all, in my professional opinion, under-crimping is worse than over-crimping.  With over-crimping I wouldn't be too worried about damaging the crimp ring.  The copper is pretty soft and it will flow out.  That said the plastic is soft, too, and will also flow out of the barbed area if over compressed.  The fitting however is not soft and could get damaged.  Though all of that is serious, it's not very easy to over-compress to that point.  Most people probably wouldn't have the strength, even with a good tool.

As far as under-crimping goes it is real easy to do and has more potential for damage.  If there is not a compression water could work its way under the plastic and over the first barb.  If that is allowed to happen the water is going to continue to work its way around the fitting to find the best spot to cross over the second barb.  If this happens most likely it will start with a fine mist spray that you won't even know about.  It will eventually work its way into a gusher, but by then the damage will already be done.

I don't want to try to scare anybody from this type of system, becuase it is a really good system.  I just won't to make sure everybody understands it.  If you buy a crimp style PEX fitting make sure it is marked with F1807.  This is the ASTM standard for that style fitting.  It controls the fitting and crimp rings.  All crimp tools should come with a gauge.  The allowance for the crimp is controlled by F1807 and the gauge is made to that spec.  The crimp ring should be placed an 1/8" to 1/4" from the end of the tube.  The end of the tube should be cut square and fully inserted onto the fitting.  Other marking to look for on the fitting would be NSF or UPC.  These are just third party certifiers that say the fitting has been tested against the ASTM standard and passed.

Jeremy 

[70winnie]

Sent: 2/19/2005

I used the gray compression fittings.  When I was winterizing my plumbing this fall, and discovered that the (non-PEX store-bought) hot tank bypass kit did not work properly with my tank, I removed some fittings to remove the bypass.  One of the "T" fittings did fail in the process, so I too am questioning the quality.  I'll have to fix the problem in the spring after I purge the antifreeze from the pipes.  Perhaps, Jeremy, I'll get in touch with you then about getting your fittings instead.

[jsn80]

Sent: 2/20/2005

I could probably help you out depending on what you need.  I'm actually heading up to Michigan this week to visit with a fitting manufacturer.  I'll find how these things are made and QC'd.

[Daved27c]

Sent: 7/11/2005

Guys;

After a long and exhausting roof project, I finally got around to filling my water tanks. Now I will be replacing all of the old plumbing. Someone(me) forgot to open all the drains, and now the plumbing looks like a soaker hose. The PO or PO's had made some "modifications" to the original plumbing system. I have copper, heater hose, reinforced vinyl, and non-reinforced. I plan to use PEX tubing with clamp on fittings. After reading this thread, and looking at the stuff, it looks pretty easy. My local Lowe's carries the pipe and a good selection of fittings. I do have a couple of questions. First are there different styles, types, or qualities of pipe? Also is $20 a good price for a 100 foot roll. I'm sure I will have more questions as I go.

Dave

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 7/11/2005

Dave,
Use the QestPex from Lowe's and the Crimp-on fittings in most places. Makes for quick work and easy, too. Them squeaky screw on things take up too much room, and the clamps are "marginal" at best.

Oh yeah, I'll send you the air pump. You know, It's surprising what I forget every other day..... now..... what else did I forget....?

Tom

[jsn80]

Sent: 7/12/2005

Dave,

Yes there are different styles, types and qualities of PEX.  I'd say Vanguard Vanex is the best (I kinda have too......It's my responsibility to make sure of it) you could get.  However, our retail market is very small.  We mainly sell to whole-sellers.  Qest, or ZurnPex, is not bad.  Their main thing is appearance.  If you look at the display, you would probably see several different sizes of print-lines.  No big deal, but looks sloppy.  In my experience though, I haven't seen too many problems with there white PEX.  Stay away from their red and blue.  It is a different process and is poor quality.  As far as fittings, stick with brass crimp fittings.  Make sure they are marked with NSF-pw and ASTM F1807.  If you have any further questions, fire away.  This is about the only topic I can really offer great advice........

Jeremy

[Daved27c]

Sent: 7/13/2005

Jeremy;

My local Lowe's carries the Qest Pex tubing in white, so that is what I will be using. Thanks for the insight on the pipe.

Dave