440-3 fuel/air intake/fuel pump issues

[wizardbill]

Well, let me describe this scenario.  I pulled in to park for the night.  It was running a little rough.  So, I thought I would check the fuel/air mixture, as it was running a bit rich (large amount of gas smell).

So, I thought to adjust the carburetor to get a better fuel mix to burn the fuel more completely and not have the gas smell.  Well, as I was tweaking the carb, the fuel stopped being delivered through the jets.  Well, I thought I must have run it out of gas, as I knew I was getting close to E, and my gauge is not very accurate.

So, I got 13 gallons in tanks and put them in.  Checking the carburetor again, I noticed that it did not help.  Well, I thought it just needed primed, so I kept pumping, dumped a little in the top of the carburetor and tried to start it.  Nothin!  POPPED the gas with a carburetor backfire, but did not start.

So, I started checking fuel lines, blowing air through them from the junction of the two tanks all the way up to the fuel pump.  No clogs.  All the way up, no problems.  So, I checked the pump.  No fuel.  Now, I knew I had a fuel pump problem.  So, I bought a new fuel pump. 

Well, with the 440-3, the push rod falls when you remove the fuel pump.  So, figured out to remove the freeze plug and use a screwdriver to get the rod up to get the pump on.  Got the pump on.  So, yup, now she starts.

So, I get her warmed up.  She is idling about 1200, so I slow down the idle.  Things are nice.  Idle about 8 or 900.  Cannot be sure, no tachometer.  Well, I put the brake on and it slows down.  I put it in gear, and it dies.  Not only dies, but backfires back through the carburetor.

So, I adjust the curb idle to get it where it will idle at about 750 or so with the brake on and in gear.  When I let off the brake, stays that way.  So, I push the gas.  It slowly starts to accelerate, then, BAM!  backfire through the carburetor and dies.

Now, I did that last scenario about five or six times.  Then, I got on to check the vacuum at the vacuum advance.  Checked the distributor, nothing turns when sucking air through the advance.

So, I put the distributor back together, now, it will not even start.

What is going on here?

What is wrong here?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Bill,
Here is an animation of a working vacuum advance mechanism in action.
The centrifugal advance mechanism is below the plate.  It spins with the shaft so you would only see different portions of it spinning past the holes in the plate when the shaft is turning.  Like I said before, if this is not all working, the engine will not run correctly.
Picture 13 on bottom section of my ignition page shows the centrifugal advance.  Pictures 16 through 19 show the pieces it is comprised of.
BTW - THere is a link at the top of that page for the whole upper article in PDF format.

The only reason I mentioned the engine starting fluid was to see if the engine would try to start using it.  Was only trying to isolate (confirm) whether or not this was an ignition or fuel related problem.

Dave

[Oz]

3D HD version of this animation coming soon!   Hm?

[wizardbill]

If I put the #1 piston all the way up, and I verify this with a plastic straw in the plug hole, then, I remove the distributor cap, is the rotor pointing very close to where the #1 spark should fire, and thus, the location of the plug wire?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Crank shaft turns 2 revolutoions for every one revolution of the rotor.  So goal is to make sure the piston is on the compression stroke.
Bring to TDC (the timing mark will line up to the timing indicator on the crank shaft)
if #1 on compression stroke, then rotor will line up to #1 plug wire. If 180 degrees out, then rotor will line up with #6 plug wire.
By 180 degrees out, I mean that since the crankshaft rotates twice for every 1 rotation of the disrtributor, the crankshaft is on the opposite rotation so the #6 cylinder is on compression stroke. 

Dave

[wizardbill]

Right.  I understood that part.  I got the timing as close as I can get it manually.  I cannot get it to start anyway.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Bill,
Turn to page 8-47 of your manual. There is a complete drawing of your timing tab

Here is your timing tab as shown in your manual on that page.  Please note that the engraved degree lines are actually on the engine side of the indicator.  Dodge mechanic cheated and used a special mag pickup tool.  No, I do not know where to get one.


Here is my timing tab.  Little different design but usable.


A lttle closer view


Based on those, I would say yours would be:

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Bill,
As far as initial timing setup this drawing in the book is the bible:


When the timing mark on the harmonic balancer is lined up to the 0 degree mark on the timing tab with #1 cylinder  on compression stroke like this:


Then the rotor will line up inside the distributor like this (rotor pointing to alternator):

Close up:


You can see the distributor cap hold down clip in the close up picture.  The relationship of #1 plug wire in the cap to the distributor hold down clamp looks like this (white tape on #1 plug wire):


With the cap secured by the clamps on the distributor, the #1 plug wire is located like this (white tape on #1 plug wire):


This is as clear of an explanation I can provide you.
Renember, this is what a proper setup looks like for a engine that is running correctly.  I do not know if someone has moved your wires around or if your timing chain has jumped cogs (chains streach with time and get loose until the jump a sprocket)  A jumped chain would also mean the cam is no longer timed correcly.  I am not saying that has happened.  Just saying there are many things to check and you may need to get someone locally to look over your setup.  This chat room style could go on for weeks as we try to describe all the possibilites to you.

Dave

Addendum:
1.  Loosen #1 plug so air will woosh past when on compression stroke.
2.  Pull coil wire from coil
3.  Uncliip distributor cap, lift off and place of to side so you can watch rotor turn.  You do not need to remove plug wires to do this.
4.  Crank motor over.  You should hear air push past loose #1 plug when rotor is in passinf #1 plug wire position (points at alternator).  This confirms that you are on compression stroke at #1.
5.  Bump start motor to bring rotor back around to #1 position (pointing to alternator).
6.  While lying under front of rig, you should be able to turn harmonic balancer by hand enough to align timing marks (I was able too tonight).  Rotor does have to be real close to # 1 position to do this though.
7.  Turn distributor to align up the housing as close as possible as my pics.  Tighten down.
8.  Tighten down #1 plug while still under rig adnd reattach plug wire.
9.   Put dissy cap back on and reconnect coil wire.
10. Start that sucker.
11.  Set timing with timing light per 8-46

[wizardbill]

Here are my timing marks painted white.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

For todays installement:
Note:  Wires in manual are identified by circuit name, wire gauge and color
BATT-12BK: Circuit = BATT; 12 gauge wire; BK = Black wire color.
Use that info to confirm your on the correct wire.



1.  At bottom area of steering column you will see a half moon connector that connects to the ignition switch
2. At the connector:
    A.  Make sure 12VDC is always available to the BATT-12BK wire.  Nothing on this wire means neither ignition nor starter will not work via key.
    B.  With Key ON - Make sure you have 12VDC on IGN1-16RE wire (Ignition supply; 16 gauge; red wire) and ACC-12LB (accessory; 12 gauge; Light Blue).  IGN1-16RE supplies the ballast resistor,  ignition module, and voltage regulator. 
    C. With key in START - make sure you have 12VDC to START-18OR and IGN2-14PK.    The START-18OR wire supplies the 12VDC control signal to starter solinoid so the starter will engage.  The IGN2-14PK signal goes to + side of coil during start to bypass  the ballast resistor.  Provides full 12VDC for easier starts.

This all has to be good to make engine go.



Dave

[wizardbill]

Dave,

Here is a picture of the wires I found under the steering column.  I am not sure if this is relevant, but I know it does not look good.  However, finding that half moon thing is not working.  I cannot seem to locate it.  Based on your description I thought it would be easy.  Please advise on an easy way to find it, if there is one.

[wizardbill]

So far I have been unable to find the thing you describe as "1.  At bottom area of steering column you will see a half moon connector"...

Is there a picture of one anywhere?  I am not sure what it is called, but I cannot find it describing it as "half moon connector"

[wizardbill]

The picture I am adding here shows the wires at the brake pedal.  I am not sure how closely you can see things, but those clips are what holds the wires.  These 6 plastic clips are not like a "half moon connector" at all.  The picture is somewhere down from here in the message.  I have not figured out how to get the location of the picture where I want it.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

That is picture of the style connector that Dodge has used for years.  The Dodge manual implies they changed into a  half moon shape.  Here is a picture of mine.   It is a know problem area.  If you look close you can also see a burnt pin (red wire) starting on mine like yours did.  Obviously, I have eliminated mine.  Actually I have modified a lot of stuff which is why I know all this.


As you can see I moved my fuse box to a new accessable container



The black/white wiring bundle above it is my trucker TY blinker stuff for top rear clearance lights.

Dave

[patriklprice]

Dave, is that lower pink wire on the flat / rectangular white ignition connector a return wire from the engine harness or is that the part of J10-16RE & J9-14PK wire that leaves the male / female square connector under the dash?

[MotorPro]

Do you have spark? Is the carb accelerator pump shooting gas?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Are you reffering to this pic?


That is the connector at the base of the steering wheel column that is attached to the ignition switch.
From left to right in the pic
Pin 1: J18-18OR - Circuit J18; 18 gauge; orange  - Start signal
Pin 2: Not used in 78.  Old BATT-12BK wire from starter solenoid
Pin 3: J10-16RE - Circuit J10; 16 gauge; Red - Ignition 1 (Engine ECU power, Alternator Regulator voltage, etc.)
Pin 4: J9-14PK - Circuit J9; 14 gauge; Pink - Ignition 2 (ballast rsistor bypass during start)
Pin 5: Not used
Pin 6: B16A-18BL/WH - Circuit B16A; 18 gauge; Black with white stripe - ground for center info panel.
Pin 7 & 8 - Not used.