Need 413 (440-3) Copper Exhaust Manifold Gaskets

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 4/15/2003

Is anyone using them? Do we have square or round ports?  Where do you get them?  Part number? (never know,cant hurt to ask) .  'Im asking as i cant stand the friggin recurring right side exhaust leak.
BooBoo

[Dave1210]

Sent: 4/15/2003

You might try a speed shop or an online performance place like Summit Racing. The 413 has square ports.

[denisondc]

Sent: 4/15/2003

I went to a place that only sells parts for engines, mostly big trucks - and just took what he gave me - metal/mineral fiber composite.  I have better luck at this place, cause to them a 413-1 is known.   Is your engine a 413?  denison

[Colin]

Sent: 4/15/2003

Go to NAPA for the gaskets. Seal them with red RTV for the leak.

C.

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 4/16/2003

Folks, the gaskets were replaced with the rebuild engine,lasted about 500 miles.  Next set was Dodge oem gasket which was a nicer quality gasket but it too went about 500 miles, they also replaced the right side exhaust manni at same time with a used unit.  This is a 440-3.  Im wondering about it being different from stock automobile 440 as we have sl different heads, I understand for more cooling, thus the port shape question.  .I fear it may have ruined the mating surface on the head with hot exhaust tunneling out.  We have a summit racing right down the road, it's where I got heat shielding wrap for starter and doghouse.  BTW, read somewhere the copper gasket is THE fix for crappy mating surfaces. Thanks for the replies.

Of course I could just pull the manifold and take gasket to Summit, DUH!!!!I tell ya,I m getting dumber by the day, the summit tip was the key as last i saw they stocked em.Just bip on down with old gasket....geez,whatta concept!
Thanks again guys,solved my problem. Its appreciated.

Brain dead BooBoo

[denisondc]

Sent: 4/16/2003

When you have the manifold off, put a straightedge against it, and the head also - to check for warpage. denison

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 4/16/2003 4:24 PM

good idea Denison
booboo

[Sea Hag]

Sent: 9/2/2003 7:41 PM

Your maifold could also be warped . my other bus has a dodge platform also 76 southwind 75 dodge chassie 440 3 my brother found a place in east chicago that have recasted the manifolds . cost was about $300.00 for the left one ours was cracked and warped  let me know if your still looking and I'll try to find out the name of the company , you might be better off getting aftermarket headers , a friend put them on his and it runs a bit cooler .

[bhart70]

Sent: 9/3/2003 7:44 AM

I was going to mention Jeg's @ www.jegs.com but I see you've already found them

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 11/5/2003 1:17 PM

I put the copper seal gasket on the passenger side. Its about 1/8" or so thick copper thing.  It has worked fine, no leaks at all.  I did find a leak were a smog line or something must go, it has a 1/2" hole on the manifold with a bracket like thing that covers it, held by a bolt, on the passenger side mani closest to cab (back of mani)  I filled this hole with some muffler stuff that comes in a can, looks like a rubbing compound can as does the stuff in it, came from napa, no more exhaust leaks at all, no more fumes (also retightened valve covers to stop small leaks).
BooBoo

[Graham]

Sent: 4/12/2004 2:05 AM

Hi ,
Have fired up my 73 Brave and all went well except....blowing exhaust through front end of exhaust manifold on passenger side.  I suspect- from muffler shops that don't want to touch it - its a 440-3 - that the bolts break and the motor has to be pulled and so does my mortgage!  Is there a slower, gentler more TLC way to remove said bolts with some special gypsy shoot product, or spoon liquid metal goop all around the exposed parts?  The manifold seems reasonably accessible fom inside the front wheel well and doghouse??  Which brave (pun not intended) souls have mastered this annoying flaw. Perhaps a copper gasket or two - from where?

How many KMs can I expect before the thing blows again?  Does the other side behave the same way but at a different interval??  What if I crank up the radio and ignore it, will it blow up or the fumes kill me??

All suggestions gratefully received.

Many thanks and God bless at this miraculous Easter time, Jenny

[Kodiak-Silver]

Sent: 4/12/2004 7:46 AM

Hey.

I don't know your engine size, but I just had a bad blow-by problem on my 454 brave.  I ended up not being able to just drop in a gasket or two, which you can do pretty easily from the front pocket by the wheel, you mentioned.

I took it off, along with the plug shields, no big deal, and looked at the gasket.  You can planely see where the leaks are coming from and I ended up having the manifold milled for about thirty bucks ( they seem to warp a little after all those years, and put a new gasket on and wha-la quiet.

You will also need to get a manifold side gasket (.89cents) for the pipe connection. FYI. Those did not come from the factory with gaskets.So if you have one it has been dealt with before.

steve.

[denisondc]

Sent: 4/12/2004 11:19 AM

Graham: Unfortunately I dont know an easy way to deal with manifold stud/bolt removal - only time consuming tiring ones that dont come with any guarantee beyond skinned knuckles and a sore back from crouching in the wheel well. But most of my money stays in my wallet. First we need more info:
Does your engine currently have bolts or studs to hold that manifold onto the head? I had thought they all used studs originally. And are there any bolts or studs broken now? Do you have or would you like to buy an acetylene torch set? Let us know - it will steer the advice.
If fixed properly I think it could last until the engine needs rebuilt anyway. Mine have been leak free since I fixed them 40,000 miles ago. One cracked in two and I had to replace it, the other is original but was milled by flat by a machine shop. Im a slow-lane driver. I aim to cruise about 55-60 mph, or 60-65 mph if I am in faster traffic. I never try to run at 70 mph. With luck I will never need another set of manifolds.
The other side manifold might be fine and might last for years, or start leaking next season. The drivers side is definitely the harder to work on, the brake master cylinder being really in the way and I think the engine is closer to the drivers side frame rail than it is to the passenger side frame rail.
As for driving with it leaking: If you drive only with all the windows open, or at least the rear windows well open, the exhaust gases wont be pulled inside. But if you ever drive it with only the front windows open, this lowers the inside air pressure slightly, and would tend to suck up whatever fumes were blowing by under the floor - through the various holes for the plumbing pipes, etc. . If my infant grandson was coming along, I wouldn't allow tolerate any leak though - he doesnt know the word for headache.
Driving it with the leak for one vacation; maybe. But even if the leak isn't real noisy yet, it will probably get worse as more of the gasket burns away.
Mechanically, it could eventually erode the engine head at the leak area , and cause a slight depression in the mating surface where it shoud be flat. This can only be fixed by carrying the engine head into a machine shop and paying for milling that side of the head. The leak may roast any wires running near it, but should do no other harm and wont hurt engine internal parts.
Whatever you do about the leak, installing a CO detector on a wall in the middle of the interior is a good idea.
denison

[furnguy]

Sent: 4/3/2007 5:37 PM

I have a '78 Chieftain with a Dodge 440. The previous owner replaced the manifold gaskets a few times (He says) and I replaced the drivers side last summer. When in Alabama this February I popped the drivers side again. I purchased some stock ones at Carquest in case I needed them on the way home.
When I got home I bought some copper gaskets and am about ready to install. A freind of mine with a hot rod used copper gaskets on his hemi (with headers) and also used copper high heat silicone. He suggests using both the copper gaskets and the copper silicone.
Anybody have any ideas on using both? Seems like overkill to me, but I don't want to be replacing it again- it is just too hard on the knuckles.
Thanks for any advice.

[wcrowles]

Sent: 4/4/2007 10:49 AM

I put the copper gasket from Summit Racing on the driver -side between 440-3 and steel exhaust header and so far it is OK. Right side still has the asbestos gasket and I don't plan to change it till it fails. Don't think any sealer compound is worth the try since temp. is so high @ exh. manifold. My head ports are square but don't know what others may have.
Bill Rowles

[furnguy]

Sent: 4/4/2007 1:10 PM

I'm not sure what is meant by the 3 in 440-3.
My Dodge 440 manifold (left side) has 4 square holes for exhaust outlet and six bolt holes (for studs).
I have the copper gaskets to fit ready to go on after I have the manifold machined flat. The gaskets are the same fit as the stock composite gaskets I tried before.  I am told that copper heats up and expands quciker than the steel and thus fills any gaps.
Keith

[GlenCarbonChris]

Sent: 4/4/2007 2:01 PM

The -3 in 440-3 means it is the industrial/ commercial/ motorhome version of the 440 engines in the passenger cars, pickups and vans. They are 440-1s. There were 440-2s and 440-4s, some of them being used in MIL-SPEC portable powerplants and some used in powerboats. Among other differences the 440-3 had different heads, with different exhaust manifolds than the 440-1.
I think the main feature of the copper gasket is that it is initially soft, and may allow more conformance between surfaces that are uneven. But Ive never used them. I have seen gaskets for the 440-3 that were one piece. Usually after a few years the connecting parts have rusted and falllen away. The same thing has happened to the exh. gaskets on my 413-1.
I am guessing, that the 2nd time your exh. gaskets burn out - its time to get them milled flat or replace them; and to check that the matinge surface of the engine head isnt eroded and uneven. That too can be milled down, but the head has to go to th machine shop.

[Lefty]

Sent: 4/4/2007 2:29 PM

About the broken bolts/studs, there are a few options available to fix this.

1: Use a right handed drill bit to extract the bolt/stud
2: Use a special stud extractor available thru Matco,SnapOn, or other commercial tool rep. that grabs the remains & twists it out. Requires about 1/4" of stud/bolt to work.
3: Drill thru the center of the stud/bolt with a standard left-handed drill bit & insert a screw extractor, the square kind that you hammer in works best for this.
4: use a torch to heat the broken part & try to turn it with a decent sized pair of vise-grips. Will need about 1/2" of stud/bolt to get a good grip. Presoaking with a good penatrant like Kroil, or PB Blaster for a day or so helps greatly.
5: Remove head & take to machine shop for drilling and re-tapping (last resort)

[furnguy]

Sent: 4/4/2007 2:35 PM

I checked the block and it is a 440-3 W.
Although Barney is a '78 it appears that the manifold is an '89 by the numbers on it.  I planned to have it milled tomorrow.
Keith

[furnguy]

Sent: 4/4/2007 6:31 PM

Henry;
I'm not sure whether I have the right heads and manifolds, but, they are what I have to work with, and I guess I will have to make do.
The engine runs fine normally and gets a consistent 8 mpg/US gal. Last year I put on new wires and plugs and this year I am going to have the Carter Thermo Quad rebuilt.
As to the copper gasket, you said they work better with surfaces that are somewhat uneven. Today we put it on a long belt sander and it seems to be pretty flat, but I thought I would have it machined just to be sure.
Using a straight edge- it is pretty close- can't see more than an occasion sliver of light when checked in front of a halogen light.  I checked all mating surfaces.
Am I better to leave it unmachined and put it back in with the copper gaskets?
Any advice appreciated.
Thanks to all for the info.
Keith

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Sent: 4/6/2007 6:32 AM

My 2 cents.  A P/O had the exhaust ports on my 440-3 heads resurfaced at some point.  This introduced a ridge at the top of mating surface such that copper gasgets will not seal on mine.  If I tried to force the manifolds to seal I would only break the manifold.  I have had success using 2 stock gasgets together to seal the area.  Just be carful waht you have them do.

Dave

[furnguy]

Sent: 4/6/2007 10:14 AM

Henry;
I had a thought about the heads on my '78-440-3 block. Would they be later model truck heads due to the change from leaded to unleaded gas?  Maybe they replaced the heads and thus the manifolds due to valve problems a few years back.
Keith

[henryblair]

Sent: 4/4/2007 2:45 PM

I do not think a standard 440 copper gasket will fit since it has only 6 holes and a 440-3 uses 3 individual gaskets, one with three holes in the center and two with 2 holes on each end.  You can buy these directly from SCE gaskets in CA.   I sent an email earlier that gave the details, so you can search for it.  I am not near my info.

I thought that the 440-3 exhaust gaskets were like the those on the 413-x truck engine 7.5/1 heads.  Evidently, if your heads are the correct heads, they are not.  The SCE gasket that you have should work well.  I suggest you re-torque the exhaust studs/bolts after a few heat cycles with the copper gaskets.  You will be pleased with the copper SCE gaskets vs stock.  They work much better if the surfaces are somewhat uneven.

Henry

[henryblair]

I guess I said it wrong.  It is always better to get the two surfaces as flat as possible.  If the surfaces are uneven, a copper gasket seems to have more sealing ability than a regular aluminum gasket.  If you are getting 8 mpg, do not change anything.  Unless you have an excellent Thermoquad rebuilder, I suggest you go to www.thermoquads.com and have Dave rebuild your carb.  Tell him what you are going to use it for and he will do an excellent job.  His prices are reasonable, usually less than $250. Henry

[weretrees]

Good day, I ordered the copper exhaust gaskets for my dodge 413 off of Summit Racing. I searched ans saw that u guys were getting those from them. They are back ordered until august 16th. Any other good sources for these copper gaskets?