muffler and manifold leak advice

[Rickf1985]

I can't believe they require you to put converters on a vehicle that never came with them. I have never heard of that. They don't even do that in California!

Hey, At least you will have the cleanest old 454 around. Make darn sure you have real good shielding around that cat since it is going to hit close to 1,000 degrees at speed. That is a lot of radiated heat and there is not a lot of room for it to go under there if you have the underneath compartments.

[BrianB]

Colorado where i live requires catalytic converters...

No state requires the addition of catalytic converters on any vehicle that was legally manufactured without them.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

AS you can see from this GM parts page for a 88 P30 chassis with a 454, converters are not required.

[DRMousseau]

Requiring a catalytic converter on a vehicles not originally designed for such would be a dangerous hazard. Modifying a catalytic system from original is also hazardous.

As noted by Rick,... they do radiate A LOT of heat. They get much hotter than mufflers. And not jus from exhaust, but from the additional "catalytic' activity too. It's important to have them properly located as originally designed,... and as other's have noted, this jus wasn't designed for 'em!!! And this is why they are "exempt".

Who hasn't had a carpet fire when messin' with a "kool" muffler install??? (or should I say HOT muffler mod???) Your at a much higher risk with a catalytic converter!!!

[stopngo]

Here's an Idea.........It may seem bizarre but think about it for a moment.

Before Catalytic Converters engines ran cooler but as a result of incomplete combustion created more CO 2 Emissions which later contributed to Global Warming.

Now we have Catalytic Converters that produce Tremendous heat right here and now and while combustion is more complete and less greenhouse gases
are produced the global warming is created right here immediately in lieu of later consequence. Net Result = 0

The entire exercise of reducing emissions amounts to Robbing Peter to pay Paul and its all a huge exercise in self deception.

If Im out to lunch here tell me why.

[Rickf1985]

And to trow some fuel on the fire to make it hotter, (just what will happen to the converters) if you put them on an older dirty engine that was not designed to run clean they will put out excessive amounts of oxides of nitrogen. Yes, nitrous oxide to you motor heads but certainly not in the formulation you are accustomed to. This stuff is nasty.

Brandon, You really want to look seriously into this because if you put the converters on there they HAVE to work and that is going to be a tough one to get by a nitrous test.

[BrandonMc]

ohh wow, okay. Glad I checked back in here and will not be doing this additional catalytic converter work. Basically, I read on the clean air website that they would need to have one. I didn't realize these vehicles never had one. Does an 1988 454 Chevy p30 have o2 sensors or air injection do you think? I already purchased the o2 sensors..

http://aircarecolorado.com/about-the-test/
Visual Inspection of Emissions EquipmentAll vehicles are given dashboard warning light and gas cap presence and pressure checks. In addition, vehicle model years 1975 through 1995 are given the following equipment checks, to ensure all required equipment is installed, intact, and in apparent working order:

   
   
• catalytic converter

   
   
• air injection system

   
   
• O2 sensor system

   
   
• "check engine" light

   
   
• Vehicles not originally equipped with these items are not required to have them. Vehicles that were originally equipped with any of them must have them in place in order to pass the emissions test. Gray market vehicles and customer built vehicles must have components appropriate to their model year, or must present evaluation paperwork from a state Emissions Technical Center.

[SLEETH]

hi, unknown about 02 sensors? might/should have a air pump
hopefully some one else will chime in!
does this unit have a ecm and or fuel injection and or a feedback carburetor?

[Rickf1985]

88 would not have O2 sensors since they have no computer controls. You will have A.I.R. pumps. One or maybe two, most likely two since I have two on my 88. With the pumps you also have A.I.R. injection at the manifolds. You will also have EGR. The vacuum diagram for the hose routing will be on the side of the air cleaner.  Item #5 in the list from your DOT states that if it did not come with it then it is not required. You "should" have a emissions label under the hood that states what type of emissions equipment the vehicle is supposed to have. I say Should because it is probably not there. But basically due to your gross weight that alone would exempt you from the cats.

[87Itasca]

My '87 has a leak at (I suspect) both the manifolds, but I'm not going to mess with it. Doesn't look like a fun job, and I think it's best to just let a sleeping dog lie on that one.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

GM did not go to TBI with ECM until 1990 on the P30 chassis (O2 sensor and CATs).  1989 and earlier P30 where carburetor with air pumps (no CAT or O2 sensor).  Chevy pickup did have TBI with ECM a few years earlier than the P30 chassis.
Key is:
Carb = no CATs or O2 sensor
TBI = CATs and O2 sensor

Feds did not require all this on heavy truck chassis until several years after cars and light trucks.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Gee  , I just read the books!  Opps  D:oH! , I forgot real men don't do that!   :)rotflmao

[Rickf1985]

But Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember that Motor homes are a year behind so a 1990 motor home is most likely on an 89 chassis and therefore will still have a carburetor. I know because I have a 1990 Pace Arrow with a carb. :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao

[Rickf1985]

My '87 has a leak at (I suspect) both the manifolds, but I'm not going to mess with it. Doesn't look like a fun job, and I think it's best to just let a sleeping dog lie on that one.

If it is leaking bad enough for them to hear it at inspection you will fail since that is an integral part of the emissions system.

[87Itasca]

If it is leaking bad enough for them to hear it at inspection you will fail since that is an integral part of the emissions system.

Ah, but when I am the one inspecting the vehicle in my shop.... 

[Rickf1985]

Can I ask you a simple question here? IF you are inspecting this in YOUR shop then you must know the laws and regulations involved in state emissions inspections. You must have a state issued inspection license. Why did we have this long drawn out conversation about the converters and pumps and A.I.R. and all of that if you are doing the inspection yourself?  I don't really mind giving advice but it kind of irks me when I find it was not needed in the end. Hopefully the information here will help someone surfing in later.

[stopngo]

My '87 has a leak at (I suspect) both the manifolds, but I'm not going to mess with it. Doesn't look like a fun job, and I think it's best to just let a sleeping dog lie on that one.

Are y'all here tellin me you are all still running around with stock 454 manifolds and haven't taken a Grinder to them to make home made headers out of them ?? I did it on mine 10 years ago. You cut out in between each of the 4 exhaust ports and you get a far more positive seal on each individual port than
the stock 1 piece manifold.

Look closely at the pic and you will see what I mean.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/rnb-674-159/overview/make/chevrolet

[87Itasca]

Hi Rick,

I didn't start the thread, I just chimed in once yesterday saying that mine were leaking, and I wasn't going to worry about it. I wasn't the original poster of the thread. Sorry for any mixup.

[Rickf1985]

Hi Rick,

I didn't start the thread, I just chimed in once yesterday saying that mine were leaking, and I wasn't going to worry about it. I wasn't the original poster of the thread. Sorry for any mixup.

Sorry about that, after that dragging on so long I forgot who was who. D:oH! Hm? W%
And what the thread originally started out as. A manifold leak thread!

[HamRad Mobile]

Good morning, Rick; 

     Apparently the Winnebago Industries people are a little more efficient than the Pace-Arrow people.  My 1987 Winnebago Elandan was built in May of 1987, and the GM people built the P37 chassis in early May of 1987.  It could be up to a month apart, but not a year.  I was quite surprised when looking at the GVWR placard and seeing that the date of manufacture was the same for both the chassis and the body assembly.   Many of the individual parts and sub-assemblies also show 1987 dates of manufacture.  Or is this just an example of the "Just-in-Time" supply chain system in manufacturing? 

     And, I thought it was in either 1992 or 1993 that they changed from the carburettor to the TBI EFI system.  Or am I confusing that with the time when the Workhorse people took over the manufacturing of the P37 chassis? 

          Enjoy; 

          Ralph 
          Latte Land, Washington 



         

[Rickf1985]

Well, 1990 is when the trucks went to TBI. I don't really know when Workhorse took over and I never even heard of a P37? I have heard of a P38, both the can opener and the airplane, have many of the former scattered around the RV and slide in.

Just found this whilst surfing.

   
• Workhorse Company, a Navistar International company, was started in 1998 by investors who took over production and sales of General Motors’ popular P-series Stepvan chassis when GM dropped it. Navistar acquired Workhorse in 2005. For a short time Workhorse offered an integrated chassis-body product called MetroStar.

And now for another edit to screw with your head some more.
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f22/what-chassis-do-i-have-p30-or-p32-26043-3.html

[bluebird]

But Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember that Motor homes are a year behind so a 1990 motor home is most likely on an 89 chassis and therefore will still have a carburetor. I know because I have a 1990 Pace Arrow with a carb. :)rotflmao :)rotflmao :)rotflmao

Do you still have the th400 trans? I've never seen a motor home that had a carb and an overdrive trans built at the factory. Fleetwood must buy a bunch of chassis in advance because I've seen quite a few that the chassis was a year older than the coach. I knew one guy that had a 88 Bounder that was on a 86 chassis. Both of my Damons have been on the same year chassis. My buddy has a 96 Storm on a 95 chassis, and it's a morfidite. It has a OBD l system with a OBD ll port. We have only found one scanner that will talk to his ecm, that's my Mac. His Snap on won't talk to his ecm because as soon as you hook up the OBD ll connector, you can't tell it is OBD l. On my Mac you can. So there is all sorts of weird things going on with these motor home chassis. I just bought a set of manuals for a 98 P32 motor home P42 commercial forward control chassis. Having some anti lock  brake issues with my coach. The light won't go off for maybe 10 minutes some times. Too cold to work on it now but been doing some studding on it.   

[Rickf1985]

Yup, still have the 400. The only GM overdrive that was not electronic was the 700R4 and in stock form they wee barely strong enough for a pickup let alone a class A. With modern parts a 700R4 can be built to handle a Class A and I have one but it is earmarked for my Jeep.

[BrandonMc]

I've got to say thanks to all who helped me here. I got too eager to get this work done, and bought that equipment too soon, so I'll take a hit on it. But at least we've set the record straight.


I'll talk to the muffler guy while installing it, he's estimating 200 dollars to do this work with my materials on hand. I'll check back and let you all know how this turned out. Apparently, we'll likely need to add a nipple or something on the manifolds for the air pump equipment.


My 88 p30 has the carb.

[Rickf1985]

In order to pass inspection you will need the correct manifolds or headers with an EO number. It should not be hard to find stock emissions manifolds but if you have to go aftermarket then Banks makes a whole end to end kit. There should be plenty of members on here who have removed all of their emissions stuff that probably still have the pumps, tubes, valves and such. I have all of it on one I am stripping but I am not in a position to get it all off yet. I still need to have it mobile.