Engine won't start... sometimes

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: Lowrider   (Original Message)
Sent: 4/28/2005 6:52 AM

I'm having an intermittent starting problem. Used to happen seldom, now increasing in frequency.

Batteries all good, cleaned ground cable at terminal and to frame. Positive battery terminal connection cleaned. Did not follow the positive lead (to relay?) and clean that yet. Thought I'd ask for suggestions first.

What happens is, it cranks over rapidly and starts quickly about half the time now. Other times I turn the ignition key to on, fine - then turn to start and the dash lights/radio go out and nothing happens, no click at all. Then I retry and sometimes it will start normally. Seems like when the engine is warmed up good and I turn it off it's more difficult to get it restarted.

My best guess is the BATT DUAL - MOM relay is not connecting properly. Seems like switching the relay back and forth gets 'er started quicker.



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 4/28/2005 7:22 AM

Vic,

Sounds like the neutral safety switch. Try running the shifter from park to 1st and back again.. sometimes the switch will get stuck, especially when you've parked on a completely level surface and the transmission doesn't fully engage in "park"

Another thing to try is the next time it doesn't start, just pull the trans shifter into neutral and see if it starts then, that would also prove it.

After that, the starter relay (up in the frame rail by the transmission) or the starter?

In some cases, I have seen the ignition switch wiring burn up at the steering column connector, look for a burn spot around the blue wire. It's an easy fix, just remove both ends from the connector and splice them together.

It's probably not the MOM switch... but there is a MOM relay inside the battery compartment, that could cause it too? But not likely, as you would be having troubles with the coach lighting and the converter if that was the case.

Tom



From: denison
Sent: 4/28/2005 7:40 AM

It could also be a bad ignition switch - the electrical part, which can be replaced separately from the key-lock part. The "starter" function involves shorting a contact (orange wire) to ground (black wire) inside the switch - if the other goodies Slantsixness mentioned are okay. There should be an 8 pin connector near the column, and the part running into the column is what comes with the new ignition switch.
And all of these parts are equally old.



From: Boise_Chief1
Sent: 4/28/2005 11:03 AM

When you loose power, is it just while you have the key turned or does it take a minute or a few seconds for it to come back?  if it takes a few seconds or a minute to come back your starter relay is bad. It can also be your starter.  I have had a dead spot on my starter that acted this way.  if the starter stopped on that area then it wouldn't start and it progressivly got worse.  eventually no start at all.
Good luck.
Sean



From: Lowrider 
Sent: 4/28/2005 4:56 PM

Thanks guys. The power only goes off when I engage the key fully clockwise, when I am trying to start the engine. When the key is released back to on position, the power comes immediately back on.

I don't do a lot of my auto repairs anymore, but I do remember the neutral switch problem from years ago with other troublesome vehicles. I am now thinking it  has those same symptoms. Anyway, I'll troubleshoot and follow up.

Vic (Lowrider)



From: cooneytunes
Sent: 4/28/2005 11:24 PM

Lowrider....Sounds like your started windings are getting too hot, you can try and make a sheild to protect it from the exaust....Starter is in a bad location for heat and starters do not like heat....If the windings heat up too much you'll get nada, nothing, zilch....The starter itself may be going bad or the heat from the exaust may be causing it to fail.....That's my guess....Somebody makes a sheild that fits the starter....saw it one day when surfing for other stuff...If I find the link, I'll post it.....but one can be made easily.....
Timmy



From: denison
Sent: 4/28/2005 11:33 PM

I think that the light on the instrument cluster for the brake sentinel lamp works only from the "running" position ignition feed. This is ignition 1. When you have the key in the "start" postion, that is a different circuit, called ignition 2. I dont think that circuit feeds the brake sentinel light, nor the gauges on the dashboard - fuel gauge, water temp, voltmeter, oil pressure. Therefore when you turn the key to the start position, it would be normal for that brake sentinel light to go out, and I suppose the voltmeter would drop to zero too.
If you go to the mytravco.com site, and select the link on the left called "manuals and brochures"; then skid down the left side of the next page to the link titled "wiring schematic" and select it, you can have a look at the same diagram I have in front of me. Its difficult to follow the wires on that instrument cluster printed circuit! Mytravco.com is sort of slow loading.
I dont know what years that diagram covers, but it is 1974 and later as far as I know.



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 4/29/2005 12:34 AM

When I turn on the ignition on the Whiny Beggar, the volt meter shows about 12 volts.  After I start her up, it jumps to about 16, and then tapers off as the batteries are brought up to snuff.



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 4/29/2005 2:44 PM

OldEdBrady,
16 volts is to high for an alternator circuit. Use a handheld volt meter to check the alternator voltage output.  Your dash gauge may not be accurate.  Measure it across the battery terminals.  Should only be around 13.8 to 14.4 volts.  Might be a little higher if the outside air temp is freezing or less.  If it is higher than 14.4 in this current weather, then you are running the risk of burning your starting battery up.  A house battery (deep cell) is less critcal as long as the voltage drops back to around 13.8 after it reaches 75% capacity.

Dave



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 5/2/2005 8:47 AM

I know that the volt meter is off considerably.  It's just one of those things I haven't replaced yet.  The real point of what I said is that, on starting up, the voltage is up, and then drops as the batteries come up to full charge.

The old Whiny Beggar has a lot of little things like that which need to be replaced.  But, first and foremost is getting her up to some sort of safety standards.  Then we can get to the other stuff.

Even restoration will have to wait, so she's ugly.  But she's ours!



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 5/2/2005 10:09 AM

Good.  Been there done that myself.  Keep plugging away at it!

Dave



From: steelman_ny
Sent: 6/7/2005 1:12 PM

if it is a chevy and doesnt start when it is hot, you need to run a separate ground wire from the starter to the frame. mine and my brother in laws chevy campers would not start after being run for a long time. i got a battery ground wire and bolted it to the frame and through the starter bolt and i never had that problem again.



From: wendell
Sent: 6/9/2005 10:58 AM

That's a good suggestion Steelman.  I have this problem from time to time.  I have a heat shield on my starter, but sometimes when the engine is hot, it is a little slow to turn over.  I'll try the groundwire fix.  It can't hurt anything, that's for sure.