Repair or Replace this converter?

Randy_in_Ohio · May 10, 2012, 11:02 AM

Took a closer look at my converter last night. I think I found why the battery isn't charging (missing fuse). Further inspection showed that:

1. The fan isn't working

2. One of the fuse holders for one of the many light circuits (this thing has more lights than my Christmas tree!) is broken and someone has taken the wire for that circuit and combined it on another light circuit lug (the red and purple wire on the far right fuse)

I have some 12V computer case fans laying around that I could use to replace that bad fan and I could probably fix the bad fuse holder or just leave it the way it is since I doubt I will ever run all the lights at the same time...

Is there any reason someone would have removed that fuse for the battery charger?

Or, should I just junk this thing and replace it with something else and if so, what should I get?

ClydesdaleKevin · May 10, 2012, 05:39 PM

Personally I would replace it with a modern unit with a 3 stage battery charger, but that's just me, and we boondock a lot.

bestconverter.com is a great place to start in pricing them out and figuring out what you need. Since your fuse panel is integral, you would either have to replace the whole shebang, or just fix that fuse holder, and then just change out the converter part of the unit...and yes, they sell bolt in replacements that are updated to the 3 stage charging, and they aren't all that expensive.

Our converter was separate from our fuse panel, so we went with a standalone unit called the Boondocker, by Powermax.

Kev

HandyDan · May 10, 2012, 07:13 PM

Like Kev said. Less noise, more efficient, and doesn't hum. For about $200 I would replace it and not worry about it anymore. Very easy to do and will keep your batteries and appliances much happier than your present unit.

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 10, 2012, 09:13 PM

Upgrade example: http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=5326.0

Dave

Randy_in_Ohio · May 11, 2012, 10:41 AM

I went to bestconverter.com and they seem to have a couple upgrade units for my B-W 6345 that replaces the converter and the fuse panel! No cutting or fitting required as it is designed to replace what I have! This is a no-brainer and should be a piece of cake to replace. Now I just need to figure out which one to get, they are both around $200. I think I'll give Randy a call a bestconverter and see what he recommends.

http://www.bestconverter.com/45-Amp-Converter-Replacement-Kit_p_46.html

http://www.bestconverter.com/4600-series-Upgrade-Kits_c_133.html

Randy_in_Ohio · May 11, 2012, 01:18 PM

I called bestconverter.com and spoke with a very nice lady. She recommended the Progressive Dynamics 4645 converter upgrade kit. This comes with a new fuse panel which uses the newer blade type fuses instead of the old glass type, it has reverse polarity protection incase you hook the battery up backwards i?? And has Four-stage charging. I'm probably going to go ahead and get two new batteries when I install it since I only have one installed now and have no idea what type of shape it's in. I'll post some pics of the install next week

http://www.bestconverter.com/4600-series-Upgrade-Kits_c_133.html

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 11, 2012, 01:28 PM

PD makes a good product. You will not be unhappy. Just make sure you mark the wires as to what they go to.
Oh, the new converter does not have a battery or converter selection output relay (I can see one in the old unit picture; blue donut looking thing). The new converter and the house batteries connect in parallel with each other (no relay required). So, there may be fewer leads on the new set up compaired to the old.

Dave

Randy_in_Ohio · May 11, 2012, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the heads-up Dave. I think I may have read something about the one less lead in the install instructions. I think the nice thing about these new ones is that they DON'T have relays. Much more efficient since there is little to no voltage drop and no moving parts to wear out or become corroded.

I also ordered the remote pendant which displays the charging state and allows for a manual override to force battery charging. I ordered online and realized after I ordered that this kit didn't have the new plastic 1/4 turn locking thing for the door that the other kit came with. I called and spoke with Cherri same lady I spoke with earlier and she said she would throw one in the box for me. How's that for service!

ClydesdaleKevin · May 11, 2012, 02:31 PM

Yep! They are awesome people over there at Best Converter!

Kev

Randy_in_Ohio · May 21, 2012, 11:17 AM

I replaced the converter over the weekend. It went pretty well, I wasn't able to get pics since I was in the dark with a droplight. I'll try to get a pic of the completed install later and post it. This was with out a doubt the best way to go. I also picked up two new batteries, so I have both battery trays full now. One concern I have is that I had a very high pitched sound coming from the converter when the charger went into maintenance mode. I hit the manual override button on the pendent and it stopped but I'm not sure if will do it again once it goes back to maintenance mode. I will have to check it tonight.

CjAl · February 23, 2013, 09:46 PM

do these units handle all the crossover for generator/shore/12v power? had a problem tonight, I lost 120 power while my generator was running. it crossed back over to 12v batt. I havn't looked yet to see if it's a generator problem or the power center.

DaveVA78Chieftain · February 23, 2013, 10:00 PM

In 78 in is not unusual to have a 12VDC transfer relay in the power center. It is controlled by the 12VDC from the converter. If the converter drops offline, the relay de-energizes and reverts to Battery. So, either you lost 110VAC to the converter, the converter is dead, or the relay is defective.

A 110V AC Automatic Transfer Relay (ATS) was rare in 78. Almost all rigs had some form of manual transfer (generator to/from shore power). Most just moved the shore power cable from generator to campsite plug. Some has two AC CB's that llowed you to switch between sources.

Dave

CjAl · February 23, 2013, 10:54 PM

it has a sort of magnetic ttansfer switch.

i just pulled the covers. i have power coming in from the generator but the switch isnt pulling in to cross it over. if i push the switch in with my finger it crosses over. it is a progressive dynamics pd764 i believe.

the generator is running rich all of a sudden. i can cross it manually but the genny starts surging and will die eventually. it died a few weeks back when i was using it. today i filed the points and it fired right up and was running smooth when it dropped power. its cold now and i believe i have the choke messed up since i put it back together and didnt set it

DaveVA78Chieftain · February 24, 2013, 09:04 AM

According to the Troubleshooting document (http://www.progressivedyn.com/service_discontinued/PDI%20Service%20Manual%20710778.pdf), the PD760 Series had a AC ATS switch function and the DC transfer function. You will have to determine which side the problem is on. The generator "surging" maybe causing the AC side to drop out.

Mechanical pictures on pdf page 19
AC functional schematic on pdf page 28
DC schematic on pdf page 27

Dave

CjAl · February 24, 2013, 11:08 AM

thanks for that. i tested it out and it comes up with the potted bridge being bad. dont know what it does or if it can be replaced by itself.

the generator must need point. i clean them and it runs butter smooth for about a half hour then slowly starts to stumble more and more untill i shut it.off and clean them again. i might be using too course of a file, that might be causing it. its a 6.5 nh and it runs great when it runs. lol

i bought this motorhome from the chief of police in my town. he owned it 25 yrs and has kept it in great shape but it isnt new by any means. i only paid $3k and it has brand new carrier 15k btu ac units. thats worth the price of admission alone. we are living in it as i build our lake cabin. power is.being installed this week so hopefully they hurry

DaveVA78Chieftain · February 24, 2013, 12:14 PM

PD Parts: http://www.progressivedyn.com/service_parts.html

Onan Parts: Assuming you have an older model Spec #
http://www.partsfortechs.com/asapcart/onan-160132801-tuneup-kit-includes-points-condenser-p-218.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONAN-160-1183-POINTS-old-style-/360536015765?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53f19f0395

Note: P/N 160-1211 has been superseded by P/N 160-1183
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63940

Dave

CjAl · February 24, 2013, 12:21 PM

oh boy parts. more money to spend.

i think i fried the batt charger board when i was "checking" it. i??

dont suppose you have a link to a modern replacement unit? i dont believe this is the origional unit but its been here for a long time.

CjAl · February 24, 2013, 12:23 PM

you are a handy guy to have around

DaveVA78Chieftain · February 24, 2013, 01:54 PM

Sorry for the delay. Had to fix the post I wanted to reference before I could respond.

Here is what I did http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,5326.0.html. Please note that my setup does not have an ATS for the AC. You would have to purchase a ATS seperately.

Dave

CjAl · February 24, 2013, 02:25 PM

i read that yesterday but i cant see any of the pictures for whatever reason.

mine is set up that it does the auto transfer and one of the ac units runs off the breakers in the 120 breakers but the second ac unit has a seperate breaker on the other side of the panel that runs a plug inside the power plug door and there is a cord to plug the other unit into it.

DaveVA78Chieftain · February 24, 2013, 03:02 PM

When Mark rearranged the site structure that thread got messed up. I fixed it earlier today. You should be able to see them now.

In general, generators rated above 4KW have the output split into across 2 seperate circuits. So, a 6.5KW generator has two 3.25KW circuits. At the generator itself, each leg is protected by a 25 amp CB. One leg is normally used to drive one AC and the rest of the coach loads. The other leg is normally only used to power the 2nd AC. NOrmally, you cannot run the 2nd AC on Shore Power.

Dave

CjAl · February 24, 2013, 05:34 PM

yes the 6.5 was added by the previous owner. i think it was origionally a 4k. i have every bit of paperwork on the rv and i have manuals for both. they rewired it so you can run both ac units at the same time on generator or shore power but to do it on shore power you need a second plug. i have my meter pole set up with the 30 amp rv plug and an extra regual plug on a 20 amp for the second ac unit. in south tx we need ever bit of ac we can get

Collyn down-under · March 11, 2013, 02:50 AM

The converter issue causes major problems in Australia - where boondocking (we call it free camping) is a way of life. Most RV owners use caravan parks (trailer parks) only if essential - it very safe to do this.

I have an article on my website re Converter issues this - but will rewrite it in an approximation of US English and non metric units and post it on this excellent site as soon as i can. Australian English is substantially different from English English.

Briefly, ripping it out and replacing by a good battery charger is only part of the solution as the typical 13.65 volt output of a converter has enabled the RV builder to install cable that results in huge voltage drop when that converter is removed and there is then a battery's typical 12.0-12.8 volts.

(Please let me know if my signature is acceptable - the rules here are probably different from those I am used to).
Collyn

DaveVA78Chieftain · March 11, 2013, 03:14 PM

Collyn,

1. Based on what I read in your article, I agree the old style original "linear converters" installed in older USA RV's (pre 2000's) did maintain a 13.6VDC output level. Many (not all) also had a 13.6VDC 6 amp battery output that reduced the amp rate as the battery SOC approached 100%. Problem with these was that the 13.6 - 13.8VDC charging voltage resulted in boiling the batteries dry even at very low amperage. However, in the early 2000's, almost all US RV manufacturers transitioned to 3 stage smart charging systems (bulk, absorbtion, and float stages). In the US, this type of charging system is available for battery chargers, RC converters, and the inverter/chargers used on larger bus size RV's. This style of charging system is connected to the system in the same manner as an alternator. They do not have a seperate charging system connection. Most of todays RV converters (not all) use a 13.2 VDC float voltage at minimal amps to prevent boiling the batteries dry.

http://www.batterystuff.com/blog/3-stages-of-smart-chargers.html

Almost all of the converters and inverter/chargers listed at http://www.bestconverter.com/ are 3 stage units.

The Black & Decker 3 stage 40/20/10/4 Amp battery charger with automatic battery maintainer and 110 amp engine start:
http://servicenet.blackanddecker.com/documents/English/Instruction%20Manual/90104835,VEC1093DBD.pdf

2. How fast the energy can be restored to a battery is dependent on charger size (amp output), battery bank size, as well as the SOC of the battery. Even a small 5 amp smart charger may take 70hrs to restore SOC to 100%. However, the typical 35 amp or larger smart charger (I have a 60 amp for a 410AH battery bank) can restore the SOC to 100% much faster. My only point is matching charging system (converter, inverter/charger, battery charger, etc.) to battery bank size is just as important to have a system you satisfied with.

3. Except for inverter/charger setups, US RV manufactures typically use to small gauge wiring so the voltage drop susceptability can be an issue.

Dave

Collyn down-under · March 12, 2013, 03:32 AM

Dave
There are a few such converters beginning to be used here that are much as you describe - so one problem is fixed - but not the inadequate cabling. Nor the free camping (boondocking) issue.

The problem is if the RV maker has exploited that still higher voltage to use smaller cable and hence introduced excess voltage drop. It did not matter for converter feed - but does for battery feed.

One point (probably needing a new thread?) is that, particularly if solar is involved, people must rethink the currently flawed way of looking at battery charge/discharge efficiency in amp hours.

This is because Ah overlooks that charging takes place at a higher voltage than when discharging. If one looks at this in watt hours (Wh) it puts a whole new dimension on that previously but wrongly assumed. In essence people have confused 'current' with 'energy'. As a few guesstimates will show, battery charge/discharge loss is actually much higher than most suspect and their maker's claim.

Collyn