Better Performance & Mileage - Eagle Research - HYC02A Cold Vapor Modification

Stripe · February 07, 2014, 05:28 PM

Kevin, in a nutshell, no gasoline goes through the HYCO. THe HYCO generates Hydrogen Gas by using electricity to separate the hydrogen from the water using electrolysis . The Hydrogen in turn then gets sent to the carburetor to augment the Gasoline vapor.
I think (and GONMAD correct me if I am wrong) the fuel savings is that you either have a more efficient burn in the piston chamber, or you can reduce the amount of gas your using due to the Hydrogen augmentation.

ClydesdaleKevin · February 07, 2014, 06:59 PM

Not sure about that, Frederic. The post is titled cold vapor, and if you look at all his pictures, there don't appear to be ANY electrodes in the HYCO. Although I could be wrong. It looks more like a set amount of fuel goes into the HYCO shut off by the float, and then gets highly aerated by the spurgers, turning it into a vapor that somehow makes its way to the carb.

HHO generators use electrodes and water, but the HYCO appears to be a totally different animal, aerating the gas violently to create vapor.

I could be wrong, and can't wait for more details from GONMAD! I've got a lot of questions about this system, and if it works in the RV, I'll put one in the 85 K5 Blazer as well, with its carbureted 350 engine...although I'm not sure how these would hold up to heavy offroad use...lol!

Again, it appears to me from the pictures in GONMAD's album, and the title of this thread, that a HYCO is a gasoline aggitator that furiously froths up the gas to turn it to vapor. And I'm not sure I'd want to run electrodes into gasoline...lol!

Kev

Lefty · February 07, 2014, 08:39 PM

"Where does all the air used to "froth the gasoline violently" go? If it is contained, it would build pressure, if it is vented, then you have a fire and explosion potential (as well as the enviromentalists hanging you by an organically grown rope for releasing hydrocarbons into the atmosphere.). If it is all routed to the engine, is the additional air accounted for in the fuel/air mix ratio? I've torn down engines that were run lean before... the excessive temps can do massive damage. from melted pistons and valves, burnt valve seats, warped or cracked heads, or cracked manifolds.

If the fuel air mix is enrichened with additional fuel to account for the additional air, how does that factor into the mileage savings? Is the gas vapor alone the only source of enrichment? and if so, what measures are taken to ensure the A/F ratio in the combustion chamber remains at least 14:1? Any higher than that can cause excess heat, knocking & pinging, and engine damage under anything but a very light load.

"The stoichiometric mixture for a gasoline engine is the ideal ratio of air to fuel to allow all fuel to be burned with no excess air. For gasoline fuel, the stoichiometric airâ€"fuel mixture is about 15:1[1] i.e. for every one gram of fuel, 15 grams of air are required. The fuel oxidation reaction is:
{\frac {25}{2}}O_{2}+C_{8}H_{{18}}\to 8CO_{2}+9H_{2}O
Any mixture less than ~15 to 1 is considered to be a rich mixture; any more than ~15 to 1 is a lean mixture â€" given perfect (ideal) "test" fuel (gasoline consisting of solely n-heptane and iso-octane). In reality, most fuels consist of a combination of heptane, octane, a handful of other alkanes, plus additives including detergents, and possibly oxygenators such as MTBE (methyl tert-butyl ether) or ethanol/methanol. These compounds all alter the stoichiometric ratio, with most of the additives pushing the ratio downward (oxygenators bring extra oxygen to the combustion event in liquid form that is released at time of combustions; for MTBE-laden fuel, a stoichiometric ratio can be as low as 14.1:1). Vehicles using an oxygen sensor(s) or other feedback-loop to control fuel to air ratios (usually by controlling fuel volume) will usually compensate automatically for this change in the fuel's stoichiometric rate by measuring the exhaust gas composition, while vehicles without such controls (such as most motorcycles until recently, and cars predating the mid-1980s) may have difficulties running certain boutique blends of fuels (esp. winter fuels used in some areas) and may need to be rejetted (or otherwise have the fueling ratios altered) to compensate for special boutique fuel mixes. Vehicles using oxygen sensors enable the air-fuel ratio to be monitored by means of an airâ€"fuel ratio meter." -Wikipedia

ClydesdaleKevin · February 07, 2014, 09:35 PM

I just read the opening chapters of the books GONMAD recommended...you can read the opening chapters for free.

I'm still getting my head around all this, especially on how the actual system works. How fuel is fed to the HYCO, and how it gets to the carb specifically.

LOTS of questions now that I am seriously considering this. The opening chapters give a glimpse into the sound science behind it, and GONMAD is actually using it with good results.

If it really is as simple as it appears, I'm willing to at least try it...maybe first in the K5 as a tester...and see how it works.

It appears though that there would be 2 books to buy at 18 bucks each. Once for the Carb Enhancer...something about rerouting vacuum lines to create a pressure in the float bowl...and the main one about the HYCO2A.

Still not a major investment.

To even THINK about a major investment like a Gear Vendor, I need more power to make it even barely worth it.

So lets start with the HYCO. It will be my first experiment once GONMAD responds, followed by a HHO gen...and if that works out, MAYBE I'll consider the expensive Gear Vendor.

Kev

pvoth1111 · February 07, 2014, 09:49 PM

Where do we get all this electricity to cause this reaction

And at what cost....the harder the alternator works the less MGP we get.....we can get drinking water out of ocean water too but we need a power plant to get the power to do so....therefore we its too expensive ....with "current" technology....

ClydesdaleKevin · February 07, 2014, 10:02 PM

Again, getting back on topic, this is a fuel vaporizer/atomizer that sends vapor to the carb, if I'm understanding this right. NOT a hydrogen gen with electical input of any kind.

I want to know how the HYCO works before going further into the HHO gens and whatnot.

Kev

pvoth1111 · February 07, 2014, 10:50 PM

All joking aside this would be great but its doubtful this is viable....if in fact it was, there would be an IPO and many wall street fat cats would be stealing even more money from you than they did yesterday.

Please, Please, Please, "Prove me wrong"

Stripe · February 08, 2014, 03:02 AM

Okay, so I stand corrected as to the power plant. I'll get back to HHO when we get back to that..

GONMAD · February 08, 2014, 08:32 AM

Gentlemen, Thank You. The HYCO is a stand alone VACUUM device. nothing electrical happens inside. Vacuum is pulled off the top & connected to the port in front of the primaries & you will completely close off the idle adjustment screws The float is for replenishing the vaporized gas drawn into the engine. At no time is any pressure present gas boils in a vacuum & that's part of the principle, I'll explain the enhancer first. A control valve is for regulating the volume drawn into the carb from the vacuum source ( either the PCV line or separate). I like to isolate all the lines so as not to pollute the effect of the devices IF possible. All Carbs have bowl vents for pressure balance & overflow precautions etc. A slightly smaller tube is used to allow the vent to work as intended when the engine is shut off, but while the engine is operating a vacuum is applied to the bowls to 'pulloff' a slight amount of hot vapor always present in the bowls at the top. The valve is only opened slightly 1/4 turn is roughly correct or thereabouts. If you open it too far the engine WILL immediately shut down. Close the valve some & try snapping the throttle open until the engine doesn't quit & it'll be good. It's important not to close off the normal function of the vents If the vent tube is 1/4" then use a 1/8" tube for each bowl. LEAVE ROOM FOR IT TO BREATHE or failure results. I sure everyone is fully capable to perform this mod. You'll feel,smell & hear the difference. This system is a stand alone & can be utilized on ANYTHING with a Carb. The Edelbrocks & Carters need to have the pull tubes re shaped to fit PARTIALLY into the vents. Holleys are no problem. DO NOT BLOCK THE VENTS! This MOD makes the bowls a part of the engine environment & NOT outside ambient air conditions. ( WE even have this on our Lawnmowers & portable generators). This HAS to be in place FIRST & only the n can the HYCO can be installed. The Enhancer is not hooked to any fuel source. I hope I haven't caused any confusion here & the results ARE immediate if done properly. It;ll make a big block anything tremendously responsive & or "ZIPPY" It helps to have your vacuum advance hooked to a timed vacuum port I use an advance curve kit in the distributor. I use one heavy spring & the medium spring & it won't usually detonate. I also set timing to 10 degrees initial & 34 degrees TOTAL & I run regular gas with no "PINGING". I'll also share something extra. GM HEI is a very good ignition & versatile There is a module with 5 plugs on it & the extra plug is for a KNOCK sensor You can use this for a high gear retard to pull the timing back 10 degrees. I use it on systems with N2O or boost. It is usually hooked to WOT switch & should only be needed if you have a high compression engine. OR NOT! The use of the preheater made the whole system unstable due to varying temperatures as the engine heats up & we no longer use it. It wasn't dangerous just unnecessary. Parts that are not there cant break kind of thing. Once again my purpose is to enlighten & inspire & not to cause anyone trepidation. IF this sound like BS then please turn your attentions elsewhere & have a good life. This for the greater good & NOT monetary gains except at the pump. Good day ALL... GONMAD

ClydesdaleKevin · February 08, 2014, 09:17 AM

Okay. So the preheater doesn't get used so that simplifies the system a bit.

How well does PVC hold up to gasoline over time?

And what about the small air cleaner thingy? Is that also a part of the HYCO?

I'm still trying to figure out exactly how this thing froths up the gas. Is it the fuel pressure coming through the spurgers creating the vaporizing effect? I can see clearly in your transparent demo model that it works, but how does it work? So if I understand this correctly, the vacuum line in front of the primaries is drawing a vacuum FROM the HYCO, sucking the gas vapor into the carb circuit? And I'm guessing the carb's vacuum effect is drawing more vapor out of the HYCO though its vents? Or does the big vacuum line somehow have something to do with agitating the fuel? And back to my other question, what is feeding the fuel to the HYCO? Is it just Teed into the fuel line, or does it have its own fuel pump? And if its Teed into the fuel line, is it before or after the mechanical pump that it gets Teed into?

What is causing the spurgers to actually operate? Is it the fuel entering the system via the fuel pump pressure, or is the vacuum line somehow doing it? And if its the fuel line and the float shuts off the fuel, wouldn't that immediately stop the agitation process, which would stop vaporization, or does the vapor get drawn off fast enough to keep the fuel flowing and agitating? And if its the vacuum doing the agitating, how is it doing it? Not sure I'm understanding the HOW of how it works.

Thanks!

Kev

ClydesdaleKevin · February 08, 2014, 09:55 AM

Okay again. Now that I've looked more closely at the pics and descriptions, I now understand that the Carb Enhancer isn't hookup at all to the HYCO and is its own system, although I have no idea how its supposed to work. It goes into both carb vents, then to a valve...and then to manifold vacuum? What is that supposed to do? You said it draws off the hot vapor from the bowl...what else does it do and why? And how safe is it for gas vapor to go into the hot manifold?

So if the Enhancer pretty much has nothing to do with the HYCO, how does the HYCO feed the carburetor the vapor? Through the big vacuum port in front of the the primaries? And how does the vapor get made again, without drawing air into the system at the same time?

Or is the HYCO in line with the fuel system, and the aerated fuel is being fed directly into the carburetor's normal fuel inlet?

I'm not getting it. If the vacuum line in front of the primaries is drawing a vacuum off the HYCO, then doesn't that get sucked into the intake manifold, bypassing the carb altogether? So what, its drawing air though the air filter, into and out of the HYCO via the spurgers and aerating the gas, and then into the intake manifold?

Where does the fuel then go from the HYCO? I know the vapor is getting sucked away by the vacuum, but there is a fuel pickup tube in your HYCO pictures fed from the bottom of the HYCO tank. Does that go directly to the carb fuel inlet then? What about the bottom fuel feed?

I'm confused. Please tell me step by step how the fuel goes from the fuel tanks, to the carburetor, with all the steps in between...and if it splits off in its journey, please paint that picture for me too. I need to know how the fuel get to the HYCO, to the carb, if there is any crossover, and how the vapor gets to either the carb of the manifold.

Simplify this for me please...lol!

Kev

M & J · February 08, 2014, 11:08 AM

Kevin, GONMAD bless his heart embellishes his posts and that makes it difficult to glean the pertinent information from what he is telling us. That is not a flame.
I went back through the entire thread and pulled the information less his other verbiage and he clearly states how this process works, what is needed and how it is connected.
One item I missed previously was how the fuel is vaporized. No power, electricity, heat, etc is used. He uses vacuum to cause the fuel to boil. Manifold vacuum. The canister is a vacuum chamber where the fuel is introduced. Think back to high school physics. To lower the boiling point of a liquid you introduce a vacuum. You can get water to boil at room temperature.
The vaporized fuel is then introduced to the carb through the bowl vent. What I havent figured out is how the vapor is drawn from the cannister without disturbing the vacuum.
If you have a printer, copy and paste his posts to a single document, remove his embellishments and then gou will get a very clear image of this process.

Stripe · February 08, 2014, 05:12 PM

Cool, literally... The Fuel is COLD boiled.. So the "EEEK! It's gonna esplode!!" fears are alleviated..

From what I can glean from what GON wrote, once the vacuum is at the point the fuel boils off, and I am guessing the vacuum doesn't have to be very strong as gas already has such a low boiling point, it's just matter of maintaining and varying the vacuum depending on what needs demand..
Whereas water has a initial boiling point of 212 degrees Fahrenheit at 1 atmosphere of pressure (sea level), gasoline has an initial boiling point of ~90 degrees F. (BTW, Don't confuse BP with Flash Point), so fuels' BP in a vacuum depends on the vacuum itself, I.E. the mmHg level.

My brain hurts, so I am going to pause there..

Oz · February 08, 2014, 06:28 PM

That's how I feel when Dave talks about electrical things... D:oH!

Lefty · February 08, 2014, 07:27 PM

Thanks Gonmad, You answered most of my questions about the system. I was under the impression it used air from some source to blow bubbles thru the gasoline. Not that it was a vacuum system that kept the gasoline chamber under negative pressure. I am aware that gas (or any other liquid) can be made to boil at room temperature, if you can reduce the pressure enough. This is how A/C systems work too. When the freon passes thru the orifice tube, it goes from a high pressure to a low pressure... which causes the freon to boil and change from liquid to vapor. This change of state is what allows freon to cool... see here: http://www.saburchill.com/physics/chapters/0103.html

DaveVA78Chieftain · February 08, 2014, 08:22 PM

To make sense of all of this one has to step back and learn/re-learn how a carburetor works. The air bleeds in conjunction with the emulsifier initially atomize the fuel prior to be entered into the air stream by the primary venturis. The atomized fuel/air mixture becomes vaporized in the vacuum region below the throttle plate.

He said the idle mixture screws were closed. The high vacuum at idle would produce more vacuum in device, higher vaporization so higher concentration of vapor injected to air bleed. However, there is also much lower main feed at idle which is why you have the idle circuit in the first place. I believe he is also using manifold vs ported advance vacuum. This drastically changes idle timing.

This device performs early vaporization of a small portion of fuel which I believe is then feed into air/fuel mixture via the air bleeds. This is the air supply that is used by the emulsifier tube.

In order to increase fuel mileage you have to increase fuel/air ratio (14 - 17 to 1). I think that is a large part of what this is device is attempting to change by introducing vaporized fuel into the emulsifier tube air bleeds. I am doing a little more research on this.

Parts of this that are getting missed on everyones radar is that GONMAD has also said in this thread:
He has only indicated he has measured a 2 MPG improvement with this device
He has re-curved his distributor. Usually done to improve HP performance.
He has not said if he has changed the vacuum advance curve also which affects MPG performance.
He has installed a gear vendor unit which in itself can increase gas mileage.
Not sure what other modifications he has made to his engine (headers, etc.).

So, be careful trying to compare his MPG improvements to a stock engine.

Additionally, in many states, any modification to the fuel system will result in failing emissions requirements. Do no get yourself in a legal bind. Many manufactures experimented with lean burn systems in the late 70's. It was emission requirements that drove them away from that.

Dave

Stripe · February 08, 2014, 11:52 PM

I see what you mean Mark.

Lol, J/k

DaveVA78Chieftain · February 10, 2014, 04:18 PM

Hope I didn't scare everyone away.

Did not mean to. Sorry if I did.

Lefty · February 10, 2014, 04:39 PM

Nah, I can usually follow along till you get to the big words...lol j/k

GONMAD · February 12, 2014, 02:44 AM

Greetings to ALL, I just returned from my trip & I'd like to supply some info that might clarify a few things... or not.
First look up Carl Benz Fuel vaporizer. YES THE Mercedes BENZ guy. HE designed one in the 1890's & used it on a motorcycle!
Second. Here's a link for another site with results.
http://www.lawbright.com/energy/vapor.htm

http://www.lawbright.com/energy/

I'm almost sure there are more websites on this subject & I surely hope someone has the books by now & boy I'm impressed with the amount of speculation concerning this subject. However the full schematic & component diagrams are in Wizemans books. It's NOT that complex & needs to thoroughly read & understood before much can be accomplished. Here are some pics of the enhancer in MY pic section.
Once again I am not in this for profit & am bound by copyright laws so you MUST have your own books. They weren't too expensive & well worth it.
I'm not just an engine re builder but an engine designer as well in the fact that the engine in the BRE RACING ENGINES DRAGSTER is a design of our own.
http://www.billetracing.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1VkAUblKmY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY6KPeR9iXs

WE MAKE OUR OWN ENGINES from BILLET. It makes 4000 hp on Nitro methane. I know it's not for an RV but I'm NOT a backyard bumbler or parts changer. I respect the accolades of my fellow RVer's & hope to clear up any misconceptions regarding this matter. I DO have my own white Labcoat if that will help any. Good day to all

Mr. T · February 12, 2014, 04:48 AM

Gonmad,

Do you still have the VW Dragster you ran in 2006? Did you drive it? If I am ever in the Fort Myers region, it would be an honor to meet you.

Don T.

Bnova · March 21, 2015, 11:48 AM

Quote from: ClydesdaleKevin on February 08, 2014, 09:55 AM
Okay again. Now that I've looked more closely at the pics and descriptions, I now understand that the Carb Enhancer isn't hookup at all to the HYCO and is its own system, although I have no idea how its supposed to work. It goes into both carb vents, then to a valve...and then to manifold vacuum? What is that supposed to do?You said it draws off the hot vapor from the bowl...what else does it do and why? And how safe is it for gas vapor to go into the hot manifold?

So if the Enhancer pretty much has nothing to do with the HYCO, how does the HYCO feed the carburetor the vapor? Through the big vacuum port in front of the the primaries? And how does the vapor get made again, without drawing air into the system at the same time?

Or is the HYCO in line with the fuel system, and the aerated fuel is being fed directly into the carburetor's normal fuel inlet?

I'm not getting it. If the vacuum line in front of the primaries is drawing a vacuum off the HYCO, then doesn't that get sucked into the intake manifold, bypassing the carb altogether? So what, its drawing air though the air filter, into and out of the HYCO via the spurgers and aerating the gas, and then into the intake manifold?

Where does the fuel then go from the HYCO? I know the vapor is getting sucked away by the vacuum, but there is a fuel pickup tube in your HYCO pictures fed from the bottom of the HYCO tank. Does that go directly to the carb fuel inlet then? What about the bottom fuel feed?

I'm confused. Please tell me step by step how the fuel goes from the fuel tanks, to the carburetor, with all the steps in between...and if it splits off in its journey, please paint that picture for me too. I need to know how the fuel get to the HYCO, to the carb, if there is any crossover, and how the vapor gets to either the carb of the manifold.

Simplify this for me please...lol!

Kev

You maybe got your answer already, as I see this is a little over a year old, but just in case you didn't.

What the carb enhancer does is take vacuum and port it to the float bowl chamber to reduce the atmospheric pressure acting on the fuel in the bowl. This in turn reduces the amount of fuel that flows from the carb into the comb chamber.

Think of it in an opposite manner. If you put a 100 psi compressed air source where you are putting the carb enhancer, how much more fuel would flow out of the carb to the comb chamber.

So reduce the pressure in the float chamber and reduce the amount of fuel flowing out of the carb. Plug the float chamber vent where the carb enhancer is plumbed and no fuel will flow out.

What this does in my opinion is lean the fuel mixture, and I'm not sure I want to do that on my motorhome just yet. Leaner will in most cases make hotter temps which could cause damage, I'm not saying it will, obviously the 1983 Honda has been running forever with the Carb Enhancer.

I think I might order the manual anyway because I'm very interested in the idea and may employ this on my carbed 1972 El Camino to see what kind of improvements can be seen.

Bnova · March 21, 2015, 01:09 PM

Alright, I bought the book and according to George, this process does not lean the fuel/air mixture, but reduces the amount of liquid fuel going into the engine.

Still reading, interesting, glad I bought the book.

eXodus · March 22, 2015, 07:45 AM

sounds like a interesting Idea. Vaporizing fuel definitely saves fuel, that's why diesel with direct injection are so good, the inject with 3000psi or more.

But there are way to many variables. You could probably built a water injection system for half the cost and also get 2 mpg or better. Not because you would be burning water, because you could advance the timing and burn very lean without burning the engine, but as soon as the water system fails you kill that poor engine.

Bnova · March 22, 2015, 09:44 AM

I like the carb enhancer, because the cost is nothing for most folks. I've the hose/tubing in my tool box and I'm sure I have some kind of valve and if not should be able to buy one for 5 bucks or less.

I bought the manual and after reading more I do want to try it on my motorhome.

Unlike the water injection, there is nothing to run out of and if you don't want to use it for what ever reason, you can de activate it in about two minutes (depending on how you set it up)and you're on your way again.

I have a big trip planned in May so hopefully I'll get it done for that trip. I have a number of other things that will take priority, I just bought the MH in November and have not had much of a chance to whittle away at my squawk list yet.