413's Carburetor Holly vs. Edelbrock/Weber

[JCMAC]

I got tired of my '72 D22C's Holly Carb and bought a new #1411, 750 CFM Edelbrock 4bb carb.  When I got it I saw it was made by Weber (of Itailan racing and auto heritage  ).  Anyway, I have been very happy with this carb as it now even starts cold!

John

PS: I see a lot of happy campers with a NEW carb of various mfgs.  I also installed an Edelbrock aluminum intake manifold (30# lighter) and picked up some extra torsque.

PPS: Mine came with the "economy jet" setting.  I get 7± MPG at 60 mph.

[Oz]

That's the carb I put on my 440 as well.  Many people do like Hollys but, as an overall observation from previous discussions, it appears the Edelbrock comes out on top as the carb of choice.  I was very happy with mine as well.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

We used a new Holley on our old 413 as well, but kept it stock at 650 CFM, and it was fine.  We had disastrous luck and very poor customer service from Holley however when we bought a rebuilt Quadrajet that they rebuilt.

Kev

[GONMAD]

You might give the "THUNDER Series 650 cfm. It has an adjustable secondary to stop the bog during full throttle apply. Hence the model name of AVS Adjustable Venturi Secondary. You can tighten this adj. to almost stop the secondaries from opening if you want (without having to BUY secondary springs) Plus the 650 is ALL thats needed for up to 500 ci. Use this formula to find YOUR engines needs.
   Cubic inches X MAX rpm = then divide by 3456 = total cfm needed at max rpm
   or in MY case 459 X 5000=2295000 divided by 3456= 664.06 cfm.
As it is BEST to slightly under carburate your engine by 10% it works out best numerically.  I know some units came with 800s & 850 cfm carbs but they're not needed. Everyone has their favorites but use discretion bigger is not always better with induction systems. Remember high RPM & large CFM will KILL your Mileage.
  I hope this will help anyone looking to upgrade your induction system.
I will add, Try a WEIAND Stealth manifold You'll shed about 45 lbs & pick up a ton of torque.   As always  C YA! GONMAD

[Oz]

As far as I found on info when I was looking for a carb, I also found that a 650cfm carb was appropriate for the 318 (750cfm for 440-454).  I can testify firsthand that the 750 Thunder carb (formerly the Performer) is going to drop your mileage pretty hard.  I lost 3 mpg but I could pull mountains at 65 - 70 mph.


"The price for power is always paid at the pump"  - Mark Sobyak  (That's my quotable quote - LOL!)

[audioguyinMI]

So which carb do we pick for mpg?  Or least setup/tuning hassle?

[Oz]

The Edelbrock is known for it's ease of installation and adjustment vs. the Holly.   
In summary from earlier topics posted by other members here over the years, I would have to rate the carbs in this order in terms of tuning:

1.  Thermoquad - most difficult, requiring much skill and experience and it can be very frustrating.  Still a superior unit when properly tuned.
2.  Quadrajet - Much better than the T-quad but still requires a thorough knowledge.
3.  Holly - Much improved over the other two but a good knowledge is needed.
4.  Edelbrock - As close to plug-and-play as it gets.  Adjustments are simple, easy and the manual you get with the carb covers the process extremely well (at least from my experience with the Performer [Thunder] 750cfm carb)

As for mpg, take your pick, they'll all get you the same.  The only difference I know of is when kicking in the secondaries, the 750cfm drinking down the gas much more than the 650cfm, naturally.

When I got the Chariot, the PO had a 600cfm Edelbrock "Economizer" carb on it.  Driving from CT to PA, I got 9mpg but, on the longer, steeper mountains, it could only go 40mph (I did have a 17' open bow boat in tow as well though).

The 750cfm was a powerhouse but, it killed me at the gas pump.

In retrospect, I think the 650cfm may have been the best choice for my application (24', 12,000 lb class) although it would be considered by many as under equipped for a big block.

Here's where the Book, RV Rx for Performance and Mileage is a good book for...
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=store;sa=view;id=184

...more novice, backyard mechanics.  And even for the more experienced, it includes fixes for some common known issues with carbs like, the problem with "dry bowl syndrome" with one type of carb.  (Not to be confused with dry bowel syndrome which is beyond the scope of this forum) 

[audioguyinMI]

Thanks again Mark.  Went and bought the book.


Reading now.

[brians69d24]

Just wanted to put my .02 in on rebuilt carbs.  I had gotten a Holley rebuild  of a Carter bbd carb from Advance auto.  Any of you who know the bbd know that there can be wear at throttle shafts, allowing for vacuum leaks. 

It took 3 Holley "rebuilt" carbs before I had one that didn't have a ton of slop in the throttle shaft.  It still never ran very good and ended up getting a used one off ebay and rebuilding it myself. 

brian

[ClydesdaleKevin]

With our 35 foot motorhome, towing the Jeep and everything else we carry, anything less than 750 cfm would be horrible, especially with a 454.  Even though or rebuild of our Quadrajet is doing pretty well...about 8.2 mpg and not too many hills we can't pull at 55mph...if and when it ever needs to be rebuilt again, we too are thinking of just changing over to an Edlebrock 1411, complete with a new intake manifold and of course the spring kit to dial it in.  For now however, even though I had to install a manual choke on the Quadrajet, it is performing way too well to even consider messing with.

Kev

[Wantawinnie]

The previous owner put a Edelbrock Performer 1412 800cfm carb on the 440 in my Chieftain. On the voyage home the throttle was only opening partway because the linkage was messed up. It had OK power and got around 6mpg on the 500 mile trip. With the linkage corrected and a tune up there should be much better power, some mileage improvements would be nice but I'm not counting on it.

[audioguyinMI]

I can't say I have any complaints regarding performance.  It's the 4-5mpg's that I'm fighting.  I know I'm running rich.  Not too interested in running lean either - not looking to grenade my engine.  And I don't consider myself any kind of engine tuner.

I know a few engine tuners but they are all scared of the Winnie - like the motor really cares what it's wrapped up in.  I know of no other vehicle where you can lay semi-comfortably on carpet and futz with a carb at the same time.

Which is why I've been asking about the carb and mileage relationship.  I'm also a technical guy of many years, and I HATE to go backwards.  Rebuilding the t-quad myself is completely an option, but it's an option I will explore only after I've put something else on the motor that works.  I will not take my Winnie apart with a significant possibility of having to tow it to a real mechanic to hand off a 'kit'. 

As an electronic guy, I hate it when people bring me kits.  (something that they have disassembled which I now get to put back together, then fix whatever was wrong, then fix whatever the owner did to it to make it worse.)

Anyone got a carb they removed that they wanna sell?  Mark, is that 650 economizer still around?

[Oz]

The previous owner put a Edelbrock Performer 1412 800cfm carb on the 440 in my Chieftain. On the voyage home the throttle was only opening partway because the linkage was messed up. It had OK power and got around 6mpg on the 500 mile trip. With the linkage corrected and a tune up there should be much better power, some mileage improvements would be nice but I'm not counting on it.

An 800cfm carb?! I must say that's a bit of overkill.  One thing with the Edelbrocks, they do require the linkage adapter kit.  There's also the spring change I believe was mentioned above.  If not, it's in another topic about the Edelbrock carb.

[Oz]

Mark, is that 650 economizer still around?

Sorry, bro.  Sold it on eBay after I put the 750cfm Performer (Thunder) carb on.

I believe some would say the 650cfm economizer would be holding back on the 440's potential and that's true but, as I said, it got good mileage and pulled most hills pretty well.  It was the long, steep ones that showed it's limitations.  I remember that it was 8.5 mpg on the trips following the trip back from Connecticut, over mostly low, rolling hills and longer , mostly level highway miles.

[Big TIKI]

So, How about the 413 ?
I have a Winne D27 2-Door, 413.
I have both a Holly & a Edelbrock Carb.
Not sure witch to Rebuild.
Saw the book ?
No listing there for the 413 Mopar ?
Are rebuild kits hard to Find ?

[Oz]

Depends on the models you have.  But, I think they're not hard to find at all.  Do a quick check on Summit and JEGS.

[Big TIKI]

My D27 Winne is a project for Me & the Wife !  Just found an Carter AVS (FS 4866 S) Rebuild kit on FleaBay !  $40.00 Not too Bad. That carb is what was mounted on, with a Edelbrock Manifold.
I guess i'll just have to Play with the AVS. I'm told it's Good, Just like a Marine App's Carb. No idea what the CFM on this carb is ?
Look's easy enough.

Say, Would that Manual/ Book help me in Tuning the AVS ?
Cheer's

[Big TIKI]

Just found a Carb Manual Site !
Carburetor-Manual.Com
Carb Specific Manuals !!
PDF's !!!
Cheap !!!!!

[Wantawinnie]

Does the original Holley on the '73 413 have an electric choke? I just noticed it while messing with the one in my parts rig and it suprised me a bit for some reason.