Front brakes dragging on 84 Elandan

[Randy_in_Ohio]

I've had an issue with what I believe is the brakes dragging on my Winnebago Elandan I bought in April. I really need some help figuring out what the problem is because I'm at my wits end with it! You guys have been a great help and I really need some help now.

When I test drove it, before I even bought it, the drivers side front brake caliper got stuck. The PO said it was probably from sitting over the winter and took it apart and pryed it back and said that he sprayed some penatrating oil in it and it was fine. it seemed fine when I drove it again but I didn't go far. I bought it, took it home, changed the oil, filled it up with gas, and replaced the front air bags since I noticed they were completely rotted out. After replacing the air bags I took it for a ride down the highway and when exiting the highway hit a small bump and the thing started shaking violently! there was also a clunking sound coming from the front that stopped when I applied the brakes.  The shaking scarred the b'jesus out of me!  I pulled over and looked the front end and tires over and everything seemed fine. I drove it back home without incident, except for the awning rolling out when I made a left hand turn... (I learned how the awning lock worked that day, no harm to the awning...  amazing!)  Anyway, I took it back home and pulled the wheels off to look things over and shake it down, everything was tight. The PO said he had replaced the brakes before I bought it but from the looks of the rotors it looked like he just swapped out the pads.

I took the front wheels off and took them up to a tire shop to see if they were out of balance, they were too big for them to work on and they refered me to another local shop that works on commercial trucks, Rv's etc... They determined that it was the caliper hanging up. said that it got so hot on the one side it had almost melted the rubber hoses going to the calipers. They replaced Calipers, rubber hoses, pads and rotors and balanced all the wheels. I picked it up, the brakes seemed to stop much better than before. We took our first trip to Salt Fork about 70 mile south of us.  We just did an overnighter and drove back the next day.  It was our first time out in the RV and It was great!

Next time I took it out was to take it to a guy to have some support welded up to the frame extension for towing the boat. On the way to the welders I heard clunking again then when I went over some RR tracks I felt a wobbling in the front end and herd the clunking sound again, Again it would stop when I applied the brakes. After getting the welding done I didn't feel like messing with it any more because I wanted to use it. I took it down to Salt Fork and parked it in a storage place about 6 miles from the park. We used it all summer, We would take the boat down with the truck, drop the boat at the campground and my wife would drive me back to the storage place to pick up the RV and I would drive it  about a total of eight miles to the campground. The first couple times it was fine then I started hearing the clunking again everytime after I drove it. It never made the sound at first, only after driving for a while.

I picked it up and drove it back from Salt Fork last week and took it to the shop that installed the brakes and told them it was still making a clunking sound. they took them apart and said one of the baking plates had come loose from one of the pads. They told me they just removed the backing plate from the pad since they "don't do anything anyway"  I picked it up and drove it about 10 miles to a place to fill up the propane tanks. Again, as soon as I slowed down from highway speed on the ramp I heard the clunking again! I filled the propane and drove it back to the shop. I felt the wobble again  after hitting a bump right before I turned into the shop, but once again I was going slow so it wasn't a violent shaking, more like someone was turning the wheel back and forth really fast.

They called me the next day and said they can't find the problem, It may be something with the rod coming from the brake pedal, said there was some play in it, but "it's so old that the part isn't available... blah blah blah... When I went to pick it up I had them show me what part they thought was bad and causing the problem and I thought it looked fine, hardly any play.  I got the feeling from them that they never wanted to see me or my Winnebago again! I was really disappointed they couldn't find the problem. I told them I would pay to fix what ever it was, I just wanted it fixed!

So here's what I know:

1. I am almost certain that one of the front brakes are dragging and once heated up are causing the clunking and the wobble/shaking. The shop I took it to said they pulled the calipers off and that they are moving freely and that the problem is not in the calipers (of course, since they replaced them)

2. It's fine when you first drive it, the problem only comes back once its been driven a while. The more you use the brakes, the worse it gets.

3. I only hear the clunking at slow speeds and it will go away when I apply the brakes.

4. My Elandan has four wheel disk brakes and is built on the Chevy P30 chasis. 

5. I was told the back brakes were in good shape. I had them look them over and balance all of the wheels while it was there the first time. They said all the tires were in good shape.

6. I forgot, I had it back to this shop once more before I took it down to Salt Fork and parked it in storage. that time they told me the clunking was because of a caliper clip that had come loose.

7. I've been reading about the brake system and I'm not finding anything like what I'm experiencing. I did learn that it has a Hydroboost system that runs off of the power steering pump, could this hydroboost cause this problem?

8. I'm thinking about replacing all of the brake fluid in the system and maybe the power steering fluid in the power steering pump and hydroboost system. Maybe this will help?

I really want to get this straightened out. It's almost ready to snow, and I would really like to take it on a road trip before I put it away.

Please help me! 

TIA
Randy

[87elandan]

Replace the flexible hoses going to the calipers.  I had the same problem on my 87 elandan.  The brake hoses deteriorate in time restricting fluid flow.  Brake peddle pressure pushes fluid to caliper but the fluid will not flow back to the master cylinder causing caliper lock.  I have excellent brakes now. 

[Randy_in_Ohio]

Excellent suggestion, but they're' new. The shop replaced them along with the calipers, rotors and pads.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Might not be brake related.  You probably already solved the locked caliper issue by having the calipers and brake hoses replaced.  Check your wheel bearings on both sides, and while you have it jacked up, check your steering components for excessive play.  Pay careful attention to the tie rod ends and whatnot.  Your steering stabilizer might also be worn out or even disconnected...and some rigs like mine have an extra steering stabilizer called a Safe-T-Plus, so check that too if you have one.  Also check the stabilizer bar bushings and make sure they aren't too worn out.  We heard a clunk once too and the steering went to hell in a handbasket as did the ride, and at first I didn't notice it, but upon closer inspection one of the front shocks had broken off at the shock mount.  It was still held in place by the lower shock mount so it looked fine until you pulled on it and saw it wasn't even connected at the top.  That was caused by a PO putting on crappy light duty shocks instead of the right heavy duty RV versions.  A bad alignment can cause some of your symptoms too, so check your front tires for seriously uneven wear.  While you are at it, check every part of your front suspension and steering system...if it moves, pry on it, pull on it, push on it...check them for excessive wear and movement.  If it has a grease fitting grease it.  Alot of the premature wear and tear on our usually low mileage rigs is that previous owners never maintain them and wouldn't know a grease gun from a donut.


Hope that helps!


Kev

[Randy_in_Ohio]

Thanks for the reply Kevin. I have checked all of the steering components you listed and the shop checked them too. Everything in the front end is tight. The steering stabilizer does appear to be original as do the front shocks so I may replace those components. Not sure if I have the Safe-T-Plus, I'll look into that.

The reason I think it is brake related is that I only hear this clunking after it has been driven a while. and it seems to get worse the more I use the brakes.  Once the clunking sound starts it will go away when I apply the brakes. The front end may need aligned,I do tend to have to keep the wheel turned farther to one side to keep her straight on the highway.

I think the PO took good care of the grease fittings, the zerks were all clean and had fresh grease on them when I bought it.  I think part of the problem with me troubleshooting it is that I don't know what it should drive like.

I need someone familiar with driving these rigs to take it for a spin. That's one of the reasons I took it to the shop in the first place.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

A bad wheel bearing can have similar symptoms...does the sound go away when you apply the brakes and return when you release them?  That's indicative of a bad bearing, and if it gets really bad it will ruin the spindle, an expensive part.  If a wheel bearing is so bad it clunks and makes noise, sometimes when you apply the brakes it straightens out the bearings on the races just while they are being used, and just enough to quiet them down...and then the sound returns when you release the brakes.  Jack up each side and spin the wheels to make sure they spin smoothly with no noise, and then grab the wheel top and bottom and wiggle it...there should be no movement at the bearing, although a little bit of movement of the steering knuckle is normal.


Hope that helps!


Kev

[tiinytina]

Pull the tires and look at your brake pads.. all should be even wear.... inside and outside.

Like Kev said with the tire off the ground spinning it should be quiet, pulling top then bottom, jerking it there should be no play...

Tina

[dgapilot]

Get a digital infrared non-contact thermometer (about $30 from Harbor freight). Drive for several miles and try not to use the brakes any more than absolutly necessary. Use the non contact thermometer to check brake temperatures and bearing temperatures. If a brake is dragging, that brake should be much hotter than the other one. If you have a bad bearing, that spindle should be hotter than the other side.

Hope this helps

David

[Randy_in_Ohio]

Good Idea David. I will have to pick one of those up.

I'm going to replace the front shocks as well. Summit Racing has "Pro-Comp" shocks for 29.00 ea. I've read a lot about Bilstein being the preffered brand but they are almost 90.00 ea.  Are the Bilstein really worth that much more or will the Pro-Comp get me by ok for a few years?

[Froggy1936]

Hi Randy. I had a very loud rattle knocking sound in the frt of my P30 that stopped when i just touched the brakes hard enough to slightly apply them without slowing down . Turned out to be a broken and missing spring in the caliper. Sorry i did not take any pics. But if you look up your caliper you will see all thge parts that should be there P.S. these calipers are also used by Ford I still have a different very loud noise that i get when turning That i cant find everytime i check all seems tight.Frank

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Monroe Gas Magnum RV shocks are the way to go for the P30 chassis if you're on a budget but still want darn nice shocks.  We just put them on ours, but don't trust the part numbers I listed in my NY travel post, since I got the numbers wrong apparently, even though they were the ones listed on the Monroe guide...I had to make significant modifications to the upper shock mounts, and make my own bushing spacers so they'd fit.  Do more research then I did and get the right part numbers (if your RV still has the original Delco shocks it should be easy, since you can cross reference the number on the shock to the Monroe guide...Mine had crappy light duty aftermarket shocks that couldn't be cross referenced, so I had to guess).

They are a darn nice shock at a darn nice price, and you can get them as cheap as 50 bucks each on eBay once you have the part number.

Kev

[Oz]

I put Bilsteins on my RV.  For the cost, go with the Monroes.  They're nearly as good and a lot less costly.  Back to what may be making the brakes drag.  I'm almost 99.99999% sure it's not the shocks so, that's another topic.

[Randy_in_Ohio]

Hi Randy. I had a very loud rattle knocking sound in the frt of my P30 that stopped when i just touched the brakes hard enough to slightly apply them without slowing down . Turned out to be a broken and missing spring in the caliper. Sorry i did not take any pics. But if you look up your caliper you will see all thge parts that should be there P.S. these calipers are also used by Ford I still have a different very loud noise that i get when turning That i cant find everytime i check all seems tight.Frank

Sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing. I haven't had time to pull the wheels off and look at the brakes, hopefully this weekend. This is the first thing I'm going to look at. Thanks!

[Froggy1936]

I looked a my manual and mine is a Bendix caliper (there are different types)  The spring goes between the caliper housing and the support key (wich is held in place by a single bolt) All this is visable with just removing the wheel.  The only place you can find a decent mechanic is at Dealer truck service and even there they may tell you they dont want to work on vintage veh Its hard to make money due to difficulty of old s--- ! I worked on the line as a flat rate tech and if it was not something that was easy and paid well it was Ka Ka !!   Frank

[Randy_in_Ohio]

I got the Bilstein steering stabilizer installed. That was a piece of cake! Now I'm waiting on my shocks to come so I can install them and take it for a ride. I already removed the front ones.
I ordered the Pro Comps but took them back to Summit and got some KYB's instead, I didn't think the Pro Comps looked heavy enough and the one seemed like it was already slipping. The KYB's are back ordered so it may be a week or so.
The shocks on this thing were completely shot! That may even be what is causing the clunking sound...

Picked up a rear air spring kit while I was up at Sands RV yesterday too.

[Oz]

But the primary question, what's causing your brakes to drag, is still not fixed, correct?

[Randy_in_Ohio]

But the primary question, what's causing your brakes to drag, is still not fixed, correct?

I won't know until I drive it.. and since the front shocks are now off of it, I don't want to drive it... It may not be a brake dragging, after looking at those shocks, the clunking may have been coming from them.
I'll update the post once I know.
I sure appreciate everyones help.

[dezertgurl]

Everyone's already covered the most obvious things, but since you mentioned a kind of "death wobble" had happened at least once I wondered whether anyone's ever checked for a bent wheel or bad driveline u-joint? You might have one of those situations going on in addition to the brake/shock thing.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Given all the brake part replacement I doubt the clunking/vibration is brake related.  Bumps are resulting in component movement into a worn region. Applying the brakes causes the looseness to be reset back into a "wear groove" that is compensating for the loosness under normal load.

Upper and Lower A arms.

1. Verify bushings are in good shape at frame rail.
2. Verify attachment bolts holding A arms to frame are tight (alingement shim may have vibrated out resulting in loosness).
3.  Verify upper and lower ball joints are in good shape.  They can wear such that they only show looseness in certain situations.

Right and left side bell cranks - known high wear part. Only available aftermarket.  Causes steering linkage play.  Simular to worn tie rod ends.

Find a good "heavy truck" alignment shop to look at the front end which will have the resources to look at heavy duty components.

Dave 

[Randy_in_Ohio]

I think once I get get the shocks back on and take it out for a ride I'll find the issue. I'm just waiting for these parts to show up. They are on back order, expected delivery is 11-8. I hope they hurry up, I don't think the weather is going to hold out much longer! I really want to put this issue to rest before I put the RV to rest for the winter.

[bluebird]

Another thing to check would be the master cylinder. My old Itasca's master cylinder went bad and caused intermittent brake drag. Then one time I went to pull out and the right front wheel was locked up. Replaced the hoses, because they were so old and I was going to be pulling a 4500 lb. trailer. http://www.oreillyauto.com    had the master in stock much to my surprise. 

[Randy_in_Ohio]

Update:

Well, after waiting for a month for the rear shocks to be delivered from Summit (they were on back order and they kept changing the due date..) I cancelled the order with Summit and ordered them from AutoPartsWarehouse.com who matched the price and the free shipping

All of the shocks and the steering stabilizer were original and in really bad shape, so even though they are probably not causing the caliper to stick they needed to be replaced

So after installing 4 new KYB shocks, a new Bilstien steering damper, and the rear Firestone Ride-Rite air spring helpers, I finally got a chance to take her out on the road last weekend. The old girl went down the road nicer than ever, I did hear a bit of the caliper dragging at first  but I was able to get it to stop by hitting the brake and gas at the same time.  i??   other than that It rode A LOT better than it ever did before. And, A LOT quieter!   And, best of all, no sign of the "death wobble" which was my biggest concern to begin with.

I found a place to store it indoors for the winter and I'm hoping to get a few weekends in before next season to get over there and do some more work on her.

Next on the to-do list will be flushing the master cylinder and brake lines. I really think this may be the cause of the sticking. I wanted to get it done while it was at home in the driveway but the weather just wouldn't cooperate.

As a side note, I had the PO over to give him some pics I found behind the table and he helped me with winterizing her for the first time. He told me he had issues with the brake calipers sticking before, and that he had replaced the calipers, rotors, and pads before I bought it. also said that he replaced the master cylinder before too... This is what makes me think something in the brake lines is causing the caliper to stick occasionally. I have a feeling I may find some really nasty looking brake fluid in those lines

[Oz]

Good to hear you got your components and eliminated the death wobble.

When Dave Bailey came up one time to help me with a few things, one was completely purging and replacing the brake fluid.  The stuff coming out looked like coffee.  After it was replaced, it was obvious how badly the viscosity of what was in there had deteriorated.  I couldn't believe how much better the pressure was from simply replacing the fluid.

Here's something which someone else may be able verify or debunk since my example is using a 1974 Dodge chassis.  I had a front brake caliper totally lock-up on a very hot, summer day.  After it cooled, it released.  I found that this was something which could happen (or never happen) intermittently (or regularly) because of the particular material the brake pistons were made of in those years.  Since this seems to be a phantom problem with yours, I thought I'd just thow it out there to ponder.

[Randy_in_Ohio]

Mark, it seems a lot of people ignore their brake fluid.  I just helped my neighbor with his 2002 Dodge truck. Problem was that his master cylinder had so much crap in it from old brake fluid that the front brakes were not getting anything. 

Brake fluid is very hygroscopic, which means that it's really good at attracting water. It should be replaced at least every two years, yet most people and shops never do.

I asked the shop who installed the brakes if they flushed the brake lines when they did the job and they looked at me like I was crazy. He answered with "we only flush the brake lines if the customer requests it"   Now, to me it only makes sense that on a vehicle which is almost 30 years old and is having brake problems you might want to look at the condition of the brake fluid  i??

At this point, I'm almost convinced that the brake fluid is the problem.  I may try to get over to where it's stored this weekend and try flushing it out and see how it goes...

[Oz]

Very, very good info!