Full Time Winter Living

[DRMousseau]

Tnx,... this is actually a 2-part post as you'll see here. I took a short break between them.

The photos below show the completion of my "green-house" (with a minor change of the front support "timbers"). The bottom perimeter is loosely jus above the ground for ventilation of heavy "airs" and to provide needed circulation. I'll try to keep the perimeter cleared of snow, but should it be excessive, I've left the "doorway" completely open to a south exposure. It's a somewhat protected exposure and we see minimal wind from that direction so I hope not to see "inflation" failure. Remember,... my furnace and hot-water exhausts are IN the greenhouse. The lost heat from those exhausts will be helpful inside as the heat rises,... but dangerous heavy vapors HAVE TO escape below and/or out!!! Propane is another heavy vapor to consider here. I'll have 120gal tank located outside the greenhouse and piped into my system, as I can no longer jus run into town to fill the 100lb onboard tank. I use about 2+gal a day in cold temps at less than $2 a gallon.

The view with the orange snow fence in the most dangerous NW direction of high prevailing and storm winds. The snow fence will reduce drifting that been a past problem and the recent storm here showed it will be quite effective. But it won't stop the tremendous winds. The structure has so far handled gusts to 25mph quite well and an impending storm later next week will bring similar winds with heavy snows. The concern from this direction is inflation under the perimeter (which will diminish with banking snow) and pressure collapse. Such failure will jeopardize the canopy, so it's anchored securely to limit failure to the fabric only. It's newly replaced this year, but was less than $100 and I'll sacrifice it if necessary to protect the frame, roller, and RV damage.

The cover reduces effect of "wind-chill" and heat loss. While I "could" bunk the bottom of the RV with added straw, but air-flow is minimal and didn't want to encourage "vermin" into such comfort. "Bunking" with snow or straw is an emergency backup in case of complete failure leaving me exposed in the open.

There is considerable moisture INSIDE the greenhouse walls, but so far, minimal inside the RV! Much of that moisture is the result of propane exhaust. But the balance between inside and out of the RV has been much as expected and quite satisfactory. I have an insulating blanket that close the cab area off as the windshield and front cab area is my area of greatest heat loss. I have VERY nice window shades, but again,... windows WILL be insulated/covered in the event of failure. The top area of the green house does have about 1/2doz vents, and I may add more. I also have an option and backup of adding larger lower wall vents if needed.

The greenhouse should shed snow and ice better than the boat out back,... the boat's unheated and the smaller taut cover has less motion. Should wet heavy snow come on a calm 30degree night, I may have to be watchful of the upper areas of the greenhouse. I have about 2' of access on the dry roof of the RV!!! Nice!!!!

There's plenty of clearance to provide snow-free access to all bunks on both sides, and you can see I have a nice extended work area under the canopy with no snow at my doorstep!!! The taut cover doesn't rattle much, all support ribbons are taped to the skin and reinforces it. But it's strange to not hear the rain patter on the roof of the RV!

The real test will be Jan's low sub-freezing temps. We only see about 2-3days of sunshine in Dec and a 50degree sunny day saw the greenhouse in the low 70's,.... I opened the windows!!!! Jan see's far more sunshine thru longer days, but much colder temps. I also jus happen to be in the WORST Snowbelt of North Michigan where lake effect snows are quite excessive if Lake Michigan remains free of ice thru the winter. Next week may easily see a foot total for Thur-Fri.

And I'm READY!!!

[DRMousseau]

Oh, and the COSTS of staying in Michigan thru the winter,.... will be about equal to the costs of moving to Florida and back!!! That's propane and shelter vs gas and minimal EXPENSIVE Florida propane. Yes,... still need heat in N Florida's winter, jus not as much.

So no real gain or loss,.... except winter's comfort. I hate snow and cold!!!! And got no snowshoes!!!!

[DRMousseau]

I remember a Thanksgiving snowstorm in the Mojave back in the mid 70's. We had about 6" left on the vehicle when we arrive in Costa Mesa,.... and a dripping snowball fest in t-shirts!!!

Shrink wrap is also "RECYCABLE", with lots of drop-offs around Michigan. The roll-end leftovers I have will be used for "mini-greenhouses" over the raised beds of my son-in-laws garden this winter,.... ready for an early frost-free planting season in early, EARLY spring!!!

And next-year,.... a "solarium" is tentatively planned for a 27' above-ground pool in N. Florida!!! With hopes of extending the pool season late into the year for some friends, with a cleaner start-up the following season. It will include a zippered access door and a "quick-n-dirty" solar heater. Them folks don't take to cool water much.

If one has ever thought of, or considered, an economical, temporary, enclosed and dry workspace for RV's or auto projects in off-seasons,... Shrinkwrap might be a solution for some. It's also used to enclose large construction projects for worker comfort and protection. It's available with flame retardants and UV inhibitors too.

[Froggy1936]

 i?? But best wishes and a warm winter, Good Luck !  Frank

[tmsnyder]

DRMosseau, that looks like a recipe for death by carbon monoxide.   

[DRMousseau]

DRMosseau, that looks like a recipe for death by carbon monoxide.

It certainly IS!!!!
And there was/IS a great deal to consider here!!! HECK,... I'm living on a bomb of gasoline and vapors, a huge volume of propane, an AC electrical system with no earthen ground, a battery system releasing a significant volume of hydrogen. Did I mention a primitive septic/waste system? The hazards of CO have been GREATLY considered too. There were also many non-hazardous considerations and many of inconvenience , that are unique to life in an RV, and also must be considered. And the weight of each, is given in an appropriate proportion of hazards and risks!

Even a small amount of CO can be severely hazardous, but my level of concern here is far less than if I was fishing in a heated ice shanty for the morning. My concerns of auxiliary propane heating with "safe" appliances have kept me from considering such for my RV,... but many say they have no problems or concerns in their use. Still,... I tend to error heavily on the safer side. I'd rather my "green-house" be more sturdy and enclosed, but my concerns of such dangerous hazards were overwhelming!!!

AND, modern technology has made high quality, durable, digital CO detectors affordable today,.... expensive, but affordable!!! I see no reason why one's home or RV should be without one.

[TerryH]

It would appear to me that your shroud venting provisions - both low and high - coupled with the RV venting likely meet or exceed a stick built house. Co and propane detectors are, as you say, mandatory. Given the minimal square footage of a RV, the warning they provide should be far more quickly received than they would be in a 2500 sq.' house. With a battery replacement and detector testing log, implemented regularly, you likely are 'safer' than most houses. Kudo's for your winter prep.

[TerryH]

As for an earthen ground, I am sure you realize how easy it is to provide one if you are somewhat permanent. The below is interesting in showing the need for a proper ground:   


http://9gag.com/gag/aYbNqb7/lightning-in-slow-motion

[Rickf1985]

Since you ask for comments and mention failure points I see one I would consider. You have built an extremely lightweight structure for what I would consider to be a pretty harsh environment. You do get heavy snow up there and to be perfectly honest I do not see that structure holding up to it. The only real damage area I see is your awning, if the sow filled plastic comes crashing down the awning, and anything it is attached to, is history.

[tmsnyder]

Am I seeing this wrong?   It appears that you are you venting the RV furnace directly into the enclosed air in which you are living.   This would be like me disconnecting the gas furnace and hot water tank in my basement and venting it directly into my house.  They are vented outside for a reason.   CO detectors aren't meant as the first line of defense to CO poisoning.  They are backups to the first defense, a properly vented appliance.

No one has ever accused me of being over safety oriented but even I think this is a really bad idea. 

Can you at least vent the furnace outside the tented area?

[M & J]

 

[DRMousseau]

Yes,... the furnace and water-heater exhaust IS within the structure. But this IS NOT an ENCLOSED structure,... closer to an open end PVC carport with 3 loose walls or even an igloo. I start the genny occasionally, and the main engine,... jus to run them a few minutes and check 'em out so they're ready when needed. Sorta like running the car in the garage with the door open, my doorway is open ALL the time! As I noted,... I may add additional low over-sized vents as snow and ice will begin to obstruct the lower perimeter opening. The biggest gain here not as a warm green-house, but as a wind-break that reduces the losses due to radiation, convection and wind-chill,.... with some hoped for solar relief on sunny days.

A good deal of wet, sticky and heavy snow accumulated today, in rather mild temps near freezing, these conditions are my biggest concern with or without the added "green-house" protection. Without, a heavy load gathers on the roof with constant melting layer beneath it all. The water then freezes around the edges and causes "ponding" that will eventually freeze into a thickening layer as temps drop closer to sub-zero. Where snow-melt and water does escape the roof, HUGE thick icicles quickly form over the sides, mirrors, grill etc., and causes exterior damage. This doesn't occur when stored unoccupied and unheated, but is a constant menace to "live-aboards", as any water that begins to intrude into unseen areas (around vents, seams, pin-holes,...) may ALSO freeze into unrecoverable damage!!! Full-timers BEWARE!!!

As Rick noted, it is an EXTREAMLY light structure. I used 7mil shrink, which is typical for boat and vehicle storage and an additional cross-member when I determined that my spacing may be excessive for the needed support.  I may have better chosen 10 or 12mil often used in construction sites. Today's snow (photo below) shows the most vulnerable to be the uppermost plane and somewhat the area directly above the canopy. The loss of heat DOES reduce this as does any solar effect on sunnier days, without the ice-dams and icicles I've previously experienced. But accumulations can be excessive over the long season, jus as upon any home here. Many homeowners pull dangerous or hazardous snow loads from their roof, and I may have to more frequently. Since the structure is rather small and light, I also have an option to heat the area for a short duration by opening my ceiling vent/fans to allow added heat directly into this critical area, AND/OR use a use a kerosene "tent heater" in the rear area beyond the canopy for afternoon while working on projects "outside" in my "green-house". A fan can also be used to direct this added heat into the critical narrow area above the canopy and roof if necessary.

My greatest concern is late winter winds!!! Although critical large flats will need a dang good direct gust, buffeting thru the season may create worn areas of contact points. Many of these have been reinforced with a special tape and provides extra thickness and protection from wear and expanding tears. Still,... this kinda thing requires constant monitoring and evaluation, to foresee impending disasters. Ya hope for the best, but are prepared for the worst!

[Rickf1985]

I certainly would NOT be running the generator in there let alone the engine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  The generator yo can run an exhaust extension out the side. There is no way there is enough airflow that I see to run the engine without routing the exhaust out of the tent.

[DRMousseau]

I DO have two short flexible makeshift extensions for those exhausts, standing by. Haven't yet needed them yet, but that last pic shows that I surely will,... if even for the short moments of testing and system checks.

Today has brought a few broken intervals of sunshine, and all that you see covering me here, has now been completely shed, jus as expected.  And some banking has formed around the lower perimeter from the snow shedding, as also expected. But I didn't expect this banking effect to be so wet and heavy on the bottom of the near vertical sides. Fortunately, this area is extra strong and can be easily cleared. As long as we see no accumulations of 4-6',... I'll survive. And given the existing conditions, I can now see an actual reduction of propane use over the short period of this week. And it should be a significant long term savings, even in the worsening conditions soon to come.

Full Time Winter Living, may actually be survivable!!!
If "cave life" hibernation is surviving!!!! LoL!
(still gonna need snow-shoes.)

[DRMousseau]

A brief update,....

My long-term supply of propane arrived a few days ago,... 100gals at a wonderful $1.66 per gal WITH, delivered refills when needed (and being parked for the winter,.. deliveries WILL be needed!). And jus in time too. Although temps have been hovering around 20degrees, the 30mph wind gusts have settled dramatically.

And this morning,... an measured 16in of snow has arrived in the last 24hrs, with as much expected in the NEXT 24!!! An "avalanche" of several inches constantly slips from my "bubble".

Welcome to my FB page where I've posted a short clip of current conditions.
https://www.facebook.com/dan.mousseau.5?fref=nf

[tmsnyder]

I think you missed the point of living full time in an RV, it's not too late to head south, get the heck out of there before the snow gets too high!

[DRMousseau]

I think you missed the point of living full time in an RV, it's not too late to head south, get the heck out of there before the snow gets too high!

Oh believe me, if not for some winter appts, looong past due,.... I'd be a thousand miles away from here right now!!!


Temps outside are currently in the single digits, with over 20mph wind gusts. And inside "my bubble",... over 10degrees warmer and calm, even with the open doorway. The RV's outer skin reads about 30 degrees. No frost or ice on ANY of the windows. Nearby buildings have HUGE icicles reaching to ground,.... I have absolutely none!!!! Snow AND ice sheds itself easily from the "green house" covering, without becoming excessive... I have only to occasionally shovel it aside from where it gathers around the outside of the lower walls. It's all I had hoped for,.. dry, free of ice, snow, and water, no chilling wind, and jus slightly warmer, than the harsh surrounding environment. This is VERY extreme for December here, and the worst of Jan is similar.


I replaced the igniter, a through check, and fired up the rear furnace yesterday, Surprised to find no detectable CO in either furnace output, and thought I had TWO faulty devices,... but they both checked out quickly with other sources of CO, (started the genny nearby) and I'm greatly relieved. A slight amount of CO from the water heater when fired up,.. noticed it often started hard so I checked it out too. Nothing dirty, but a tiny air adjustment made a great improvement in ignition and emissions.


Damn it's cold out there!

[DRMousseau]

I think you missed the point of living full time in an RV, it's not too late to head south, get the heck out of there before the snow gets too high!

Oh believe me, if not for some winter appts, looong past due,.... I'd be a thousand miles away from here right now!!!


Temps outside are currently in the single digits, with over 20mph wind gusts. And inside "my bubble",... over 10degrees warmer and calm, even with the open doorway. The RV's outer skin reads about 30 degrees. No frost or ice on ANY of the windows. Nearby buildings have HUGE icicles reaching to ground,.... I have absolutely none!!!! Snow AND ice sheds itself easily from the "green house" covering, without becoming excessive... I have only to occasionally shovel it aside from where it gathers around the outside of the lower walls. It's all I had hoped for,.. dry, free of ice, snow, and water, no chilling wind, and jus slightly warmer, than the harsh surrounding environment. This is VERY extreme for December here, and the worst of Jan is similar.


I replaced the igniter, a through check, and fired up the rear furnace yesterday, Surprised to find no detectable CO in either furnace output, and thought I had TWO faulty devices,... but they both checked out quickly with other sources of CO, (started the genny nearby) and I'm greatly relieved. A slight amount of CO from the water heater when fired up,.. noticed it often started hard so I checked it out too. Nothing dirty, but a tiny air adjustment made a great improvement in ignition and emissions.


Damn it's cold out there!

[DRMousseau]

Quick update,....


Had propane tank refilled yesterday.
Avg daily use since Christmas,... 2.6gal a day. This has been the toughest stretch of sub-zero and freezing temps and should get better after the groundhog appears.


Glad I have a "senior discount" with local propane supplier!!!

[boohoo222]

its even cold down here in georgia W% :)rotflmao

[DRMousseau]

Ya never REALLY know when winter's really over in some places, like here in North Michigan. The 10' piles of snow disappear, only to return again with several inches of whiteness. And then the bouts of freezing rain, sleet, snow pellets, and occasional record-breaking low temps!!! Seems winter NEVER ends!!!


So last fall, I planted a bunch of crocus and tulips since the groundhog is jus a "fairy-tale".    I figured when the last days of winter are upon us, the crocus begin to bloom, and I should have my "bubble" removed in time to enjoy the tulips bobbing colors.


My "bubble" has done GREAT!!! No challenge to heavy wet snows and ice,... but winter winds were a bit unearving. The snows built up tremendously on the ground around the sides and added INCREADIABLE weight, pressure and tension to the "bubble", and aided it's wind resistance. But SPRING IS APPROACHING!!! The crocus and tulips are jus beginning to appear thru the bare ground here and there as the snow recedes with warming windy days!!! AND THAT WIND!!!   WoW!!!


Yesterdays winds gusted to 53mph around here, some places nearby reporting over 60mph!!!! Thought my "bubble" would finally "PoP"!!! It certainly won't endure the vicious spring thunderstorms yet to come! N:(


But it has kept me VERY dry and comfortable thru the harsh winter here. With the supporting structures resting on the roof with little clearance though, I'm unable to gain the needed access to seal and recoat the rooftop in preparation for the upcoming season of adventure. This "foresight" would have been wonderful as the environment has kept the roof clean and dry with sunny warmth and ventilation, perfect for such roof work!


So with a close eye to weather forcasts,... I now hope to catch a good stretch of some warm, sunny, dry days, and quickly remove my "bubble" and attend to the needed maintenance. Once removed, the HUGE covering will temporarily serve as a loose "tarp", overnight, covering to keep dew and morning dampness at bay during the multiple coating and sealing process.


Current thoughts and lessons learned by this experience??? The "bubble" has been GREAT in my expectations! No heavy damaging ice and snow buildup on the roof. With 24hr heating, melting snow from escaping heat, forms a constant layer of water, that freezes and builds a giant ICE SHEET of immense weight on the roof! Excess that constantly drips off, forms HUGE icicles that hang on the sides and are also damaging and cause water to backup and penetrate where none should! These are problems an unheated RV in outdoor storage seldom sees in excess. Soooo, no leaks nor damage from winter life in the RV,.... it has been kept dry and the interior very comfortable without excessive humidity, mold, or any dampness at all! Heat costs have been reduced by the large insulating air space of the "bubble" and the lack of excessive chilling wind and air flow around and under the RV. I WOULD consider a more durable "temporary" supporting structure. A freestanding geodesic framework of metal conduit, would be easy to assemble and secure to the ground in much the same manner,.... a temporary garage or pole-barn sorta thing. I would also consider a slightly more durable shrink-wrap rather than the typical 7mil I used. This would not only be suitable for winter season of full-time living,... but would have extended uses of major RV repair and reconstruction, a protected place for unexpected winter repairs of autos or trucks or garden equipment, and great late-winter greenhouse for an entire garden!!!


I hope to not spend another harsh northern winter season as a full-time live aboard,... but IT CAN be done, and in great comfort too!!!

[DRMousseau]

Well,... the "thaw" is arriving, sometimes, occasionally,.... aw heck, it's The Winter Wonder Land of Michigan!!!!  D:oH! And while there IS still a bit snow in the shadows, for the most part, it's gone,.... but we could dumped on in a sneeze! W%  In the meantime, I have some fruits and flowers potted up in the sunny side of the "greenhouse" for an early spring start when it gets here.


I expect crocus to show up late this week MAYBE. I'm always hopeful, and tulips have pushin' up, everywhere,... will be a while till they're ready to bloom. And while March is breezy, winds gusts are only about 30mph or so. Warming temps, breezes, and rains have begun to soften the ground a bit. And my ground anchors may loosen badly in a storm. Sunny days above 40, can see a HUGE temp rise in my "bubble". Enough to start some roof maintenance where accessible. I'm watch weather forecasts VERY closely. Need about 3 days of +55degree temps and above 40 nights with light breeze,.... then it comes down and quickly recoat the roof before heavy spring rains and storms arrive. Oh,... and before the fishing season gets too far under way. Got trips planned for May.


As a quick "pop-up", my bubble has surpassed all I expected. A few issues with sliding snow that builds up heavily around the perimeter. This tightens the "bubble" a lot, and pressured the board supports on top. I see some very slight "crushing" of the roof at the very edges. May actually provide for drainage a bit. Since my canopy has been open all winter, the roller is jus slightly bowed from the same weight and pressure, as a few supporting straps ride over the roller. Canopy is jus fine, but if a severe storm arrived unexpectedly, and lifted my "bubble" loose, I would surely suffer the canopy loss and MAYBE worse structural loss and RV damage. To rollup the canopy would severely loosen the bubble in a critical manner. But with the canopy out all season AND DRY, there is nothing harmed in any way. No water, ice or mildew or any winter damage at all. It is dusty,... the bubbly is jus a little dusty inside. Nothing washes away AT ALL! But the next few weeks will be BUSY!!!! Spring IS coming!!!!


If I were to do it again, I would make a few changes. Most notably,.... a framework totally independent of the RV and canopy. I think I'll design a large geodesic "bean" sorta, freestanding framework, using light steel conduit. This could be quickly and easily bolted together and anchored more firmly to the ground, and provide a much stronger "base" for the shrink-wrap cover. Easily taken down, color-coded, and stored in bundles. Freestanding, I could drive from under it if, or when needed, and the canopy would not be necessary for the additional room I enjoy. The cover could be "cut loose" in the event of extreme weather of disastrous nature, leaving the airy framework to stand thru the storm if necessary. I might consider a slightly heavier shrink-wrap for such, while the standard weight performed well, a heavier weight would extend use beyond winter for various purposes as a greenhouse, storage of boats, lawn equipment, and vehicle repair out from the rainy, windy, cool spring weather. Such a structure is far FAR cheaper than a large pole building in many ways, and has many of the same advantages and some flexibility too. Hm?


OH! BTW,.... IF, I had ever considered a TBI EFI conversion,.... I'd be unable to resist a little "boost" too. Todays technology is AWESOME, and so much better than when these classics were made. No more concerns of "flying carburetors" and shrapnel like that experienced in the '70s,... yes, I SURVIVED!!! W%  And it sure was exciting!!! But how great jus a little boost would be in hilly country or busy highways, and it's so much easier today!


Oh listen,........... RAIN!!! I kinda miss raindrops on the rooftop,... definitely quieter in the "bubble", can barely hear it out there.

[Froggy1936]

My reccomendation is NOT to go to TBI injection , If you have a properly operating Carburator There is no improvement.  For a decent injection syestem It has to be port injection  TBI is the same as a carb ! SEe my Posts in the projects section !  Frank

[CapnDirk]

Amen.  There was a reason it was short lived.

[tmsnyder]

Was it this lengthy thread?


http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,5978.msg22986.html#msg22986


I didn't read it, just the first post where he finds a donor vehicle.