Engine smokes when cold

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: waylonsway53  (Original Message)
Sent: 1/28/2005 3:56 PM

Just got this 73 indian with I think a 440-3 engine.Smokes when started and lightens off when warm.Does smoke some when going down the road.Thought of pulling heads and putting new pistons and rings in.What parts would I look for TO FIT THIS ENGINE.. and such.All help is needed.Would it be too hard to do this work while the engine is sitting where it is..Thanks and we look forward to meeting new people on the road soon.  john and sharon fort Walton beach florida



From: denison
Sent: 1/28/2005 6:11 PM

I wouldn’t “fret” too much about rebuilding that engine right away. How much steady-long-drive use has it had in the past few years?
When I got mine it had 49k miles on it, had been sitting mostly for 4 years. It put out a noticeable blue plume while moving along, and if I restarted it when warm, it gave a thick blue puff. I didn’t have time to rebuild it before our first vacation, so packed a case of motor oil, and checked it often. Naturally I had changed the old oil and put in a new filter, and I put half a quart of motor oil into each of the fuel tanks each time I re-filled them.
It used a qt in the first 75 miles. It took a 2nd quart after 150 more miles, the 3rd quart after 200 miles beyond that, and by the end of the first days drive (500 miles), the blue smoke was only noticeable because I looked for it. That vacation was 2200 miles total, and by the end of the 2 weeks, there was NO blue smoke when running, and it was only using a quart each 500 miles. The oil control rings had freed-up. It still gave a pretty blue puff when we started the engine while it was warm, such as at gas stations, restaurants, rest areas; and its been doing that ever since, for 13 years. It now has 96k miles on that original engine, and only puts out a thin blue plume for the first 20 or 30 minutes when I start it up --- if it has been sitting idle for a few months. But the rest of the vacation will be smoke free when running. It now goes between 500 to 800 miles on a quart of oil. The blue puff when starting warm is due to the hardened valve stem oil seals When I first got it I did a compression test. Two cylinders were way down, like 60 psi and 40 psi. After that long vacation they were all up near 125, and close together. The compression rings had freed-up along with the oil control rings.

If/when you decide to rebuild it, the hardest part in getting the heads off will be the need to pull the exhaust manifolds first. This wont be too bad if you have an acetylene torch and your spine doesn’t mind being curled inside the wheel arch. Getting the heads themselves off wont be hard, aside from their weight.
But if you want to change pistons/rings, you will need to ream off the ridge at the rim of the cylinder, and then to hone the glaze off the cylinder walls. This will be drudgery because you cant get a drill to line up with the axis of the cylinder, due to the floor of the motorhome being in the way. I suppose there are right angle drill drives that would handle the work, but I never used one. The hardest chore underneath might be getting the rear main crankshaft seal replaced without lowering the crank â€" which of course you cant do with the tranny connected. If you replace the main bearings, you would probably want to replace the front and rear crank seals. I just replaced the bottom half of that rear seal on mine â€" and that worked pretty well.
Getting the parts to rebuild it wont be too hard, but you will need to deal with a business that specializes in engine parts for commercial vehicles, not just for passenger cars. If they don’t know the difference between the 440-1s in the pickups, and the 440-3s in the motorhomes, you are probably in the wrong outfit. An automotive machine shop would probably have a recommendation where to go. I would ask for forged pistons â€" I think the originals were cast.
I would try driving it â€" not for short errands, but long enough for the engine and the motor oil to be fully warm - then see if the blue smoke thins out. Let us know how it goes.
You have a nice looking web site.



From: calbrave
Sent: 1/28/2005 6:23 PM

Denison: "and I put half a quart of motor oil into each of the fuel tanks each time I re-filled them."
You put motor oil into the fuel tank? How often or under what conditions should that be done? Just when the exhaust is smoking?
You need to write a book so I don't keep reading posts that freak me out.



From: DJ54
Sent: 1/28/2005 6:36 PM

If there aren't too many miles on this engine..., could it possibly be the valve seals?? I purchased original "Mopar Performance" "Viton" valve seals for mine, for less than $15.00. That and a set of valve cover gaskets, and you'd be set!!

  If that is not the case.., I still have a '79 440-3, complete with a 727 tranny out of a motorhome, with less than 3,000 original miles, if anyone is interested...., and priced less than a rebuilt longblock 440-3.

DJ



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/28/2005 9:40 PM

With that post from denison, I think that, should it ever happen to the Whiny Beggar that I need to do all that stuff, she can sit in the driveway, and She Who Must Be Obeyed and I will just pretend we have gone somewhere for the weekend!  (and I thought the starter was a bear to replace!)



From: HeavyHaulTrucker
Sent: 1/28/2005 10:44 PM

Ed, you wimp... where's your sense of adventure? 

John



From: OldEdBrady
Sent: 1/29/2005 1:00 AM

Most of my sense of adventure took a permanent vacation about the time I turned 60.



From: denison
Sent: 1/29/2005 7:21 AM

Replacing the starter IS a bear of a job, since it only comes out along a specific route, and its not light. But it gets lots easier the 2nd time you do it!
Its likely those 32 year old (and now overvulcanized) valve stems seals are the reason for the blue puff on a warm startup, and they probably result in slightly higher oil consumption when cruising along, but I doubt they would be the reason for a constant blue trail of smoke from the tailpipe â€" which I think would be old or sticking piston rings. Luckily the valve stem seals can be replaced without removing the engine heads. It would take a couple of tools you wont find at Sears or the typical hardware store though. Thank heaven for www.snapon.com and www.cornwelltools.com.

The half quart of motor oil into the full fuel tank is just to help lubricate the valves and piston rings until the engine gets fully warmed and normal lubrication is happening again. It probably also helps the valves to reseat if any of them are corroded on the contact faces, and therefore leaking slightly, but it isnt an essential thing to do. It cant hurt the engine either. I did it for the first 1000 miles when I first got mine, and have done it since, when my Winny had sat for almost a year without being started at all. It might also extend the life of the valves and valve seats slightly, because it has the same valve lubricating effect as the tetraethyl lead that used to come in the gas our V8s were designed with. Im not one of the people who starts the engine periodically to warm it up. I try to only start it if I am going to be using it for a drive of 30 minutes on the highway or more. I want the motor oil to get fully warm, so the water vapor and acidic contaminants that condense into cool oil will boil away from the oil when its hot.

I am 60 now, and I have to pace my mechanical work, because I cant/don’t/wont bend over so well anymore.



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 1/29/2005 3:15 PM

I agree with putting a little oil in the tank on a motor that hasn't been used in quite some time, kind of like breaking it in easy. Less chance of oil starvation and engine failure.

But:

I wouldn't put straight 20 wieght oil in my kid's pedal car.

"Blended oils are better today....."
We obviously haven't seen a 440 after 40K miles of Quaker State 10W40. It looks like a wax impression of a lifter galley by Andy Warhol.

And That "warren" motor oil. What is it? Used french fry oil?

The "Blending" process, or how Multi-Viscosity (blended) oil's are made, hasn't changed much in the last 30 years. The process is still the same (no matter what the manufacturer says to sell you the oil!). Some oil brands are notoriously bad (above examples) and others are all pretty much all the same (castrol,uniflo(exxon),Valvoline,etc.)

Don't ever mix oils, like 20W50 and 10W30 together. It might take a lot of miles, but you'll be sorry you did.

And the blue smoke from almost all of these motors is definitely from Valve Seals. With a 25.00 tool, a piece of rope or a good air compressor, and about 2 hours, you can change them without tearing your whole motor down, and they cost around $15.00 plus valve cover gaskets. And they will not smoke anymore, unless your rings or cylinder walls ar bad, broken or scored. Or you use no lead additives and wear out the valve guides.

Tom



From: bboat101
Sent: 1/29/2005 5:02 PM

Are you saying we shouldn't be using substitute lead additives in our old engines that were meant for leaded gas?
brian



From: denison
Sent: 1/30/2005 6:07 PM

I think he is saying you Should use an additive that substitutes for the tetraethyl lead, at least as far as protecting the valves from increased wear.
I make an effort to remember to put in the additive each time I fill up. But its not a big worry to me, since my engine has hardened valve seats, and stellite faced exhaust valves. I think all of the commercial V8s in our motorhomes are made that way. I am confident I will have to rebuild my engine eventually, probably due to worn rings, long before the valves have gone bad.