Engine cranks but won't start

[genereaux]

Bought it (79 Brave) a year plus ago. Done some small coach stuff. I've driven it a little(Drove home from where we bought, drove it down to dump tanks, around the block a couple times) but no real 'maiden' voyage yet.
Now, it has stopped starting. It was struggling a little to turn over, but it also had a tired battery, so it struggled to crank as well. I have replaced the battery now,  and it's cranks great, but doesn't start. Doesn't even almost catch. Just cranks.

I'm not much of a weekend mechanic, but I can read and wrestle a wrench and muddle through most engine/automotive projects. Just might take me a little time.

I did a few searches here, and will do so again after I post this, but here are my primary questions- Does this sound like a fuel pump and/or filter issue? Or No?

It seems (with the new battery) that it is cranking strong and fine. And I feel like I changed out the cap/rotor a while ago. And maybe even plugs/wires (but I'm less sure about those)

I already got a new fuel pump (mechanical. Don't know if this one would have an electric as well), but before I crawl under and start to swap it out, is there anything else equally as 'easy' that I am overlooking?

Dodge. 440-3



Sean

[DonD]

I would try to start with test gas to see if it's fuel delivery issue.

[cosmic]

put a shot glass of gas down the carb. if its starts up and then dies its a fuel issue. (trace it back) if it cranks and no fire the you got a spark issue.

[genereaux]

Roger that. Will try.

[LJ-TJ]

Yep! Pull a spark plug out ground it (some where,the block and try to start it) if you get spark, OK.
Pull the air filter off and look down the top of the carb, while looking down the carb push the gas peddle down several times and see if you have any gas squirting out. if ya do good. Let us know how you make out.

[tiinytina]

Keep it simple first if no fuel getting there.. change the fuel filter....
Tina

[genereaux]

OK, here's the latest:
Went ahead and changed the fuel pump. As i was swapping it, I (of course) brake the fuel line (from pump to carb). Fine, buy a new fuel line, and filter while I'm there (and the inline was right there next to the pump). So I changed the line, pump and filter.
Tried to start it again. Still nothing.

Pull a plug/wire, crank it- there's a spark.
Dump a little bit of gas right down the carb- OH! it ALMOST grabbed. MMmm.

Now, I am not a greatly experienced mechanic or engineer, but even I can recognize that it's fuel delivery.

But now there's a new fuel pump and filter.
I did observe, as I was changing stuff out, that there was VERY little gas in the line (from pump to carb) as I took it out. In fact, only as I took it the car to run to the store did some finally dribble out. Also, nothing poured out of the line  when I took off the filter.  But I did blow a spurt out of the filter (delicious) after I removed it.

Oh, and let me add:
Yes- when I parked it there WAS gas in it. At LEAST a half tank on the main, and over 1/4 on the Aux.
However, (I don't know if this indicates anything) when I switch the tank switch, the gauge reads 'accurately' when its in the Aux position, but when I switch it to Main it drops down to empty.
I first noticed that last time I put gas in it.

So, anyone have thoughts, ideas or suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Sean

[Oz]

The gauge may indeed be reading incorrectly as this is a common problem.  Both my '74 Indians had this issue.  We have topic info on that on the boards.  For now, you may want to dump like 5 gallons in just to be sure and key on getting that fuel into your carb.

[LJ-TJ]

Well what I've done in the past is taken one of those ketchup or mustered squirter's  and filled half with gas. Then gave the carb a little squirt and cranked her over. If she fires and quits, then give her another squirt and if she fires keep dribbling gas into the carb to see if she'll keep running (WATCH SHE DOESEN'T  BACK FIRE THROUGH THE CAB). 

If she'll run like that for a sec. or bit, then get a small gas can and hook up a piece of fuel line on the fuel pump on the intake side and give her a try. If that works you know your problem is between the fuel tank and the carb. Then you got something to go on.

[genereaux]

The gauge may indeed be reading incorrectly as this is a common problem.  Both my '74 Indians had this issue.  We have topic info on that on the boards.  For now, you may want to dump like 5 gallons in just to be sure and key on getting that fuel into your carb.

I stuck a dowel into the tank and there's five inches or so in there. So I'm going to guess that the gauge doesn't read the main tank. I will need to fix that as well, later. Is there a thread on that someone could point me to?

If she'll run like that for a sec. or bit, then get a small gas can and hook up a piece of fuel line on the fuel pump on the intake side and give her a try. If that works you know your problem is between the fuel tank and the carb. Then you got something to go on.

Well, I'll do it again today, but I got the sense yesterday that when I dumped some gas straight in the carb that it almost caught, and would have turned over if I had poured a larger amount in there (I think I did half of the earlier 'suggested shot glass').
Presuming (as I do) that it IS between the tank and the pump/filter, what would some possible culprits be?
In that the fuel gauge registers the aux tank level, but NOT the main, is there a sending unit or tank mounted pump that may have gone out?

Though, as I type that out loud, I realize that even when I switch to the Aux tank, it still doesn't start so these are fairly separate issues.

Thanks again,
Sean

[Oz]

I stuck a dowel into the tank and there's five inches or so in there. So I'm going to guess that the gauge doesn't read the main tank. I will need to fix that as well, later. Is there a thread on that someone could point me to?

Take a look:

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,1465.msg1642.html#msg1642

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,1379.msg1509.html#msg1509

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,5494.msg19761.html#msg19761

All these were easily found by entering "fuel gauge" in the message search.  If you have more questions, choose the one you feel is most appropriate and post a reply to it.  This helps keep as much relevant information in one topic instead of say like... three, for example - LOL!

For members having Dodge Chassis 1973 - 1975, we have an excellent fuel gauge troubleshooting article, in the Member area

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

For Dodge,
There is a fuel tank select valve mounted to the passenger side frame rail.  Driven by tank select switch
Each tank has a fuel sending unit intalled in it.
Dodge did not use an electric pump.
Rubber lines age and crack resulting in the mechanical pump sucking air instead of gas.

Dave

[LJ-TJ]

Good one Dave forgot all about that. If you put some gas down the carb and it starts and runs then you know it runs. If you then disconnect the fuel line between the fuel pump and the gas tank and connect a hose to the fuel pump and  stick the other end into a gas can and it runs then you know the fuel pump works and the carbs working. Now Dave's idea comes into play. Follow the fuel lines back to the gas tank and see what you come up with. You could blow in the disconnected fuel line at the fuel tank back to the gas tank to see if you can hear bubbles in the gas tank. Hm?

[genereaux]

Take a look:

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,1465.msg1642.html#msg1642

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,1379.msg1509.html#msg1509

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,5494.msg19761.html#msg19761

All these were easily found by entering "fuel gauge" in the message search.  If you have more questions, choose the one you feel is most appropriate and post a reply to it.  This helps keep as much relevant information in one topic instead of say like... three, for example - LOL!

I apologize. I only mentioned the gauge as a possible symptom of the overarching 'won't start/fuel delivery' issue. I didn't expect someone would start on the troubleshooting checklist for bad gauges. I only acknowledged it to affirm that there WAS in fact fuel in the tank.
I'll try to hold a better focus on my threads.

For Dodge,
There is a fuel tank select valve mounted to the passenger side frame rail.  Driven by tank select switch
Each tank has a fuel sending unit intalled in it.
Dodge did not use an electric pump.
Rubber lines age and crack resulting in the mechanical pump sucking air instead of gas.

Dave

DING, DING DING!- Winner!
I THINK. I went underneath today and traced the line back from the motor. At the first tank, on the passenger rail (as noted) there was a 'thing'. I say thing, because I'm done now and have come inside to find that post. In that this 'thing' (switch, as Dave is correctly pointing out) is combing the lines from the two tanks, I pulled it. Went to the store, got a new one, two more filters, a little line, a couple clamps. Pieced it all back together, dumped some gas in the carb (shot glass and a half this time) and tried to start it again and finally, on the fourth try, it went. I let it run a bit, Turned it off. Started it again, let it run, then took around the block to back it into the backyard.
So- SUCCESS! Whether it was the pump or the selector switch, I'm not sure. But it runs again.
Thank you all! Granted, it seems like it's running more ragged than it was, but at least it runs. I'll get to the rest of it.

[DonD]

Victory is sweet!! 

[LJ-TJ]

>GRIN< :)rotflmao Hot darn congratulations.

[cosmic]

I like those big shot glasses. LOL. glad you got it figured out.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

You didn't say so runs on both tanks?

BTW - find a hill and go up it to see if it starves for gas (symptom of cracked rubber fuel lines)

Carry extra fuel filters.  Thes things are bad about rust in the tank clogging the filters in as little as 50 miles.  I use see thru style with replacable elements that can also be cleaned

Dave

[genereaux]

You didn't say so runs on both tanks?

You know, I did not check that now that you mention it. On a side note there, is there anything to watch for when switching tanks? Like don't do when at speed or something?

BTW - find a hill and go up it to see if it starves for gas (symptom of cracked rubber fuel lines)

Carry extra fuel filters.  Thes things are bad about rust in the tank clogging the filters in as little as 50 miles.  I use see thru style with replacable elements that can also be cleaned

Dave

I've got a couple hilly streets here, and was slow coming uphill, but determined. didn't seem starving. I mean, overall, it runs a bit ruff and needs some looking into but it seems at least like the fuel problem is staved off a little.

Good tip on the filters too, and thanks for all the other words as well.

Sean

[DonD]

When switching tanks..When I know it's getting close to switch time and there's a grade coming, I switch before the grade then when on the flat I go back to the previous tank and run her dry. Running out/switching on a grade causes too much loss of velocity IMO.

[Oz]

I apologize. I only mentioned the gauge as a possible symptom of the overarching 'won't start/fuel delivery' issue. I didn't expect someone would start on the troubleshooting checklist for bad gauges. I only acknowledged it to affirm that there WAS in fact fuel in the tank.
I'll try to hold a better focus on my threads.

No apology needed.  Many topics naturally lead to others since there can be one or more "peripheral" issues related to the primary one.  I posted these so that you would have somewhere to go once you got the lack of fuel to carb issue resolved. 

I also had the tank switch over solenoid problem.  I had no idea why I couldn't switch tanks and was pretty surprised when Dave Bastiani showed it to me and repaired it in short order.

You know, I did not check that now that you mention it. On a side note there, is there anything to watch for when switching tanks? Like don't do when at speed or something?

I have no idea why I developed this habit but, about every 50 miles of driving, I would switch to the aux tank for about 5 miles, didn't matter if I was on a grade or not as there was no interruption in the fuel delivery caused by the switch-over, just to make sure the aux system was being kept in use and that it would work if needed.  This also helped to use the gas sitting in there.  Otherwise, who knows how long it would be in there unused if I wasn't planning any longer distance trips.

[liquidwrench63]

if it has a dual ballest resistor id check that

[76minnie]

Could be anything. You need to start out verifying its getting fuel and then spark. And then go from there

[povertycoach]

You should be able to look into the carb without the air cleaner on it to see if there is fuel being squirted in the primaries when you pump the throttle.  If you see no fuel pour a bit o' gasoline or starting fluid into the carb.  If it fires, the problem is carb or fuel supply (there is gas in it, right?) Start with easy like filter and pump.  Electric or mechanical pump?.  [/size]If it does not fire, the problem is ignition.  My guess is low battery.  Low voltage will not fire Electronic ignition.  After you verify fuel supply is good, pop a charger on it and try firing it.

[PwrWgnWalt]

Does it try to start, then die when you let the key return to the "run" position?[/size]That would likely be the ballast resistor.  White, ceramic block thingy in the engine compartment, wires at both ends.I always carry spare, as they can die at any time.