Are CO2 detectors necessary?

[Faderz]

Sent: 11/24/2002 1:54 PM


My '73 Minnie Winnie has no CO detector. Considering the draftiness, is this really an essential? I've just fired up my propane furnace (possibly the first time it's ever been used), and it works great! It's an old Suburban. Unfortunately, the lowest thermo setting is 60 degrees, but it was a pleasant surprise that it fired up.

Now, how about carbon monoxide?

"Faderz"

[Colin]

From: Colin   
Sent: 11/25/2002 12:20 AM


A CO detector was one of the first things I installed in my '72 Indian after I bought it, along with a smoke alarm and two fire extinguishers.  The peace of mind alone is well worth it.

[denisondc]

Sent: 11/29/2002 11:35 AM


   If I was going to do ANY camping where I used a non-electric heater I would carry a CO detector.  My first choice would be the unit that lives in the upstairs hall when we're at home.  I also carry two fire-extinguishers.  One hangs just inside the entry door, so we can grab it from outside.   denison

[mightybooboo]

Sent: 3/3/2006 9:59 AM


Same story.  These are absolute neccesary items, you should not be in your Winny without them.

BooBoo

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 3/3/2006 10:31 AM


CO detectors.... gotta have one!
Propane and Smoke too, don't forget.

Installation rules:
CO and Smoke on the ceiling, Propane on the floor near the door.

"MUST HAVES"

Tom

[LJ-TJ]

Are they necessary NO! Are they SMART...YES!  D:oH!

[cosmic]

I would ask myself. what is my or my families life worth??? go spend the small amount of money for a good night sleep. (remember to test and change the batteries every now and again.) to many tragedies happen to often over a dead 4 dollar battery.

[intofire1]

Yes, give one to yourself for Xmas. What other gift can save a life?  As a firefighter in Los Angeles for the past 30 years, I could tell you some stories but not before Xmas.  Seen way too many tragedies that a few dollars would have saved. Please have a safe holiday.
Gil in LA

[tiinytina]

I hate waking up dead...  D:oH!

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Yep...CO and smoke detectors up high, LP down low.  They should never be omitted, especially if you are going to run your genny at night while you are sleeping, or the furnace while you are sleeping.


Kev

[HamRad Mobile]

Good morning;   

     Warning; this message is EXTREMELY CRITICAL of the recent "combination CO-LP gasses detector" which has become available.  And I need to revive this topic with this criticism. 

     As Tina indicated, it is always nice to wake up in the morning. 

     And you have already heard the proverb about Smoke and CO (Carbon monOxide) gas rise to the ceiling, and the heavier-than-air LP gas falls down to the floor. 

     I cannot explain why a vendor wants to "save you money," and try to sell to you a "combination CO-LP gasses detector," other than he just wants to sell something to you.  There is no good rationale for a combination unit in this case.  A "combination CO-LP gasses detector" is A VERY BAD IDEA.  DO NOT BUY ONE. 

     There is no way that you can put a "combination CO-LP gasses detector" in "the right place" to protect you from BOTH CO gas and LP gas.  If it is up in the "right place" for CO gas, it is in absolutely the "wrong place" for LP gas.  You CANNOT have it BOTH ways with a "combination CO-LP gasses detector."  This is not really a criticism of the detector itself;  there is just this problem that it ignores the physics associated with the characteristics of the two different gasses.  Unfortunately, both of them are dangerous, but in different ways. 

     Instead, accept the physics involved, and buy two separate detectors, one for the CO gas, and one for the LP gas, and put them in the proper location for each type of gas. 

     If you already have a "combination CO-LP gasses detector," I suggest wiring it in as your low mounted LP gas detector, and then get one of the smaller CO gas detectors to mount up high near the ceiling.  That way, you are properly covered for both types of the gasses. 

     And, your RV is not the only possible source for CO gas in your RV.  If there are other RVs parked near you, and one of them is running its AC power generator, you could have CO gas from their exhaust rising up to the level of your windows and coming into your RV while you are sleeping with the windows open during a Summer night.  That can depend on the way that the wind is blowing. 

     Summary:   

     DO NOT BUY A "COMBINATION CO-LP GASSES DETECTOR." 

          Enjoy;   

          Ralph 
          Latte Land, Washington 
          and who has two (2) CO detectors in his Elandan,
          one in the back bedroom and one in the galley 

[EldoradoBill]

CO is the same density as the atmosphere, so it really doesn't matter at what level it is installed since it doesn't rise or fall but mixes with the air. A combo LP/CO detector is perfectly acceptable if it is mounted low to the floor where the heavier-than-air LP can be detected early.


Bill

[HamRad Mobile]

Good morning, Eldorado Bill; 

     Thank you for reading the messages provided, and for joining in the discussion. 

     Perhaps it is best that I simply say that we do agree on many things related to this topic, but perhaps not all of the things under discussion. 

     However, I can say that I do not agree that "CO is the same density as the atmosphere,  . . . "  The difference may not be great, but there is a statistically significant and measurable difference. 

     From The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, and other sources also, it is noted that for the "Standard Atmosphere," or Air, at 25 degrees C. the molar mass will normally be in the range of about 28.8.  From the same sources, Carbon Monoxide at 25 degrees C. has a molar mass of right around 28.01, which I believe is slightly less than that of Air, or it is "less dense than air," or it is "lighter than air," and it should "rise" in the more dense Air.  I agree that it is not as light as is Hydrogen or Helium, so the rate of "rise" from that physical characteristic alone may not be very rapid, but I do feel that I must stand on my statement that Carbon Monoxide will "rise to the ceiling." 

     I will also supplement my statement with having noted also that the instructions provided by the manufacturers for both of the two different brands of CO detectors that I have for my vehicle, also claim that CO will rise to the ceiling, and that is why they ask that the owner of the CO detector please place the CO detector on the ceiling or up high on the wall near the ceiling in the space where people may be sleeping. 

     Then there is also the point that Carbon Monoxide (CO) frequently is a byproduct of incomplete combustion in the operation of fossil fuel powered internal combustion engines, such as the ones used to power the movement of our motor home recreational vehicles, and used to operate the engines turning generators to produce a nominal 120 VAC 60 Hz power to operate the air conditioners and other truly "power hungry" electrical systems in our motor home recreational vehicles, and most often there is a notable positive temperature differential in the exhaust gases, including Carbon Monoxide, in comparison with the ambient temperature of the surrounding atmosphere which will also produce a tendency for those warmer exhaust gases to rise in that atmosphere around and in our motor home recreational vehicles. 

     On the basis of at least those three (3) points, I think that the claim that the CO gas will rise to the ceiling is still valid, and is certainly justifiable as a reason for us to place our CO detectors up on or near the ceiling. 

     Ergonomically, it is usually easier for us to see the lighted visual alarm also when the detector is mounted higher.  Unfortunately, we cannot take advantage of that capability with the LP gas detector.  If there is a trash container or other similar item on the floor, it may obscure or prevent us from seeing the visual alarm of the LP gas detector.  In that case, we must rely on the audible alarm. 

     And I am glad that we do agree that the LP gas detector should be placed down low near the floor. 

          Enjoy; 

          Ralph 
          Latte Land, Washington 

[EldoradoBill]

My RV has a combo smoke/CO detector and it's mounted to the ceiling (I don't have a LP detector-yet). I do have a CO detector in my home and in the shop and these both plug directly into an AC outlet-about 16" off the floor. Wherever it's mounted I agree it's vitally important.


I'm never a big fan of combo units of this type anyway-when it fails, you lose all protection.


Bill

[Rickf1985]

Ok, I can't resist. The difference in the density between CO and air is so close that normal convection will spread the CO but here is another wrinkle to think about. We all know how humid the inside of a RV is due to humans being in there breathing right? Wet air is lighter than dry air. W% W%

CO: molar mass = 12 + 16 = 28
N₂: molar mass = 14 + 14 = 28
O₂: molar mass = 16 + 16 = 32
Dry air: ~ 4/5N₂ + 1/5 O₂: molar mass = 28*4/5 + 32*1/5 = 28.8

So CO is lighter than dry air.

Wet air can be lighter than dry air, however (if the % of water is high).

I have the the propane detector in the original location under the fridge and a combination detector at eye level just outside the bedroom. the bedroom

[circleD]

Just my 2 cents from running emergency calls. I doesn't matter about the weight of either one. Yes it is nice to know the information about both. When you are in a confined area such as a rv, house or even a car the air is in an area that can't move much and it will build up to limits that are not good. If you run an electric exhaust fan to keep the air fresh inside and waste your A/C or heat then you'll be fine. But just from experience, if the area is sealed up the CO will reach higher levels. No matter the height of your detector. My rule of thumb is to put the detector at head level when you are sleeping in bed. Since it is a silent killer and you want notice the symptoms while you're sleeping.

[xerofall]

I picked one up for a great price on eBay. They can be a little pricey if you're on a fixed budget. I was searching around for the best value and still need to install it, but I feel better having both this and smoke detector in my rig.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATWOOD-RV-DUAL-LP-CO-GAS-DETECTOR-ALARM-/121462612293?hash=item1c47bc6145

I received it quickly. It has an extra set of wires to tie into a second battery as a backup. So that's nice.