Does the 440-4 have a reverse rotation radiator fan?

[tiliman]

does the 1978 dodge 440-4 have the reverse rotation radiator fan? while standing behind the motor it starts and runs in counter clock wise rotation. so while standing in front of motor home, the motor is running clock wise. this motor does not have clutch. i wanted to put a standard rigid fan on to get full air flow at high rpm as in say passing gear and 30 to 40 miles per hour. so a flex fan would not be ideal i would think.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

does the 1978 dodge 440-4 have the reverse rotation radiator fan?

Not that I know of

i wanted to put a standard rigid fan on to get full air flow at high rpm

Because of the roar, you will regret that choice.   The fan should only be needed when sitting idle or when pulling up a hill in a lower gear.  When moving at normal speeds 35 to 60 MPH, there is more than enough air flow through a properly maintained radiator.  One important  aspect to this is a properly fitting plastic radiator shroud that ensures the air is pulled/pushed through the radiator under all conditions.

Dave

[tiliman]

Hi dave: thank you for your response. the PO took it off, said he had a motor fire that burned it up, gas hose burst and started the fire.   the reason i wanted to change the fan is that i just finally acquired a shroud. never had one at all for awhile! now it does but, the opening is 22 inches in diameter  and the fan is a 17 inch and there is about 5 and half inches from the inside blade edge to the radiator. so i was thinking that the fan is way to small for the opening and to far from the radiator.

the motor home was not driven in the summer, and only a little in the winter. never had a over heating problem untill last month when it started to get warm. to get out of globe az, i have to climb some pretty long hills in any direction i go. i installed a after market water temp gauge to watch the temp and anytime i have to climb a hill it will over heat and sometimes to the point of vapor lock. 240 up to 260 degrees. at 35 mph to 45. the.

what would be your thoughts on the size of the fan and how far away from the radiator should the fan blades be?

im to far away from a major town to make a mistake on fan size and spacer, so have to order online. we all know the hassle of having to return something that was not the right part ordered.

thanks for your patience
John 

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

240 up to 260 degrees

Ouch. Way to hot for normally running (190 to 215)

Fan should only have around 3/4" max clearance on shroud (all the way around).  Alternative is "twin" electric fans or at least one big one (either way use temp controller for them).  Your hill climbing is your biggest problem which is when you need the boost.  If you look at a regular car you will see the relationship between fan and shroud.  Even the shroud covers the entire radiator.  You want the fan pulling maximum suction (closeness of blade to shroud) over entire radiator surface area.  A normal fan clutch is about 6" thick from Water pump pully (at work not at home at the moment so I cannot measure it).  Normal fan mounts at about the 4" mark.  I will get some measurements when I get home tonight.   Also note that I replaced my old dead radiator with a cross flow racing style radiator so it's not an exact match to your as far as the radiator is concerned.

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

If I can make a suggestion:  You said you are in Globe, AZ, which isn't insanely far from Phoenix, where the largest RV junkyard is in the country.  Arizona RV Salvage.  (I'm a resident of Apache Junction now, although we are only there in the winter months).

Even if you can't make the drive, they are really good with internet orders.  Tell them what size engine you have, what type of motor, the year of your motorhome, and see if they have a fan shroud in stock that will fit your engine.  They have great prices, and shipping shouldn't be all that much from Phoenix to Globe.  Then you'll know its done right with an original fan shroud.

I know those hills you are talking about around Globe...especially the really steep one coming up through Surprise through the tunnel and Top of the World...its a steep long grade.  You definitely want to make sure your cooling system is top notch.

We added an additional transmission cooler with its own fan, and wired all 3 electric fans to a relay, then to a switch on the dash...if things start to get hot, I hit the dash switch and 2 radiator fans come on as well as the transmission fan, and the temps come right back down.  This is in addition to the stock fan and fan shroud, and we can still hit 220 on really steep inclines in hot weather.  But our average temps now are around 190 water temp, 120 trans temp.

Call Arizona RV Salvage.  They are listed in the member resource section.  They may be able to help you out.

Kev

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Will try to get those measurements tonight.  Wife pulled me away with honey-do's.

Dave

[tiliman]

hi ya Kev! i did call them first, was not able to talk to the old man, ED. but as soon as i said it was a reverse rotaition 440-4 they had know idea what i was talking about. they have been around for many many years but that one stumped them. i truly believe the old man was born to be a rv info wizard. lol. so i had no choice but to open pandoras box.. started calling around and just for eveyones fyi. i found that chrysler did build a few reverse rotation 440,s. m440-4 was a marine motor that was used on large dual 440 boats. it was used only on the port side of the boat. to get the props turning in the same direction they used gears. why i dont know but they did build one. so of coarse when i replaced the old water pump i got the standard high out put one. wrong!!! lol, seem mopar has a fixit kit for that problem. 550.00 bucks. at least thats what Jegs told me. he suggested electric water pump for 249.00 and then install high out put fans.  we really do live and learn dont we. i was also told by napa to try the correct size- reverse rotation fan. the only time i have an over heating problem is climbing hills, other than that it runs at about 180 210, with no tstat, full flow. i am getting some circulation, just the wrong way. oil pump turns in the right direction. so i have plenty of pressure. distributor is ok, he said leave it alone lol.as i wont find one anymore. so run like the devel if it says 440-4 on block. 

[tiliman]

and for dave, not a problem, i was married for very long time. i know what it means when she says - fine!! right after you say ill get to it in a little bit. 

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Did someone install that 440-4 in the rig.  It sure did not come stock that way.

[tiliman]

Did someone install that 440-4 in the rig.  It sure did not come stock that way.

they must have Dave! only 2 choices of motor, 440-3 or 318. think it was the 318 anyway. right? anyway hoping the reverse fan will work pretty good till i can save up for all the stuff that should be installed. will keep close eye on temp and make sure i have and escape plan to get off road untill it cools off.  p&b samich while im waiting at any rate, seems that little tid bit of info should have been passed on over the time that motor has been in the coach. unless who ever did it had no idea either.  i do know that the Y connector for the black and grey tanks was install backwards as well  D:oH! after market tanks. i know what your thinking but i promise it was not me lol. i am getting a very good education that is for sure! it also has the m600 axle too. perchased new brake pads for M400 axle but they didnt fit. took them back to napa with the old ones and he matched them up to the M600 axle. he said when dodge was winding down production of the chassis, they were just grabbing what ever they had left on the shelf. not sure that was true, or maybe he was just covering for selling me the wrong part in the first place.  Hm?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

To ensure we are talking on the same page, the arrow points in the direction of rotation for a stock 440-3:



Fan diameter = 20"
Shroud hole diameter = 22" (1" clearance all around)
Fan to radiator = 2" (Note: I forgot to measure this distance when I replaced the radiator.  I have had no heating problems at this distance)

Front view drawing of 440-3 MH engine from service manual:


typical 440-3 radiator setup


318 and 360 distributor is at rear of engine
440  distributor is at front of engine

it also has the m600 axle too

Not sure what you have but:
M300 uses a front single caliper (NAPA pad P/N UP 7019)
M400 - M600 uses a front dual caliper (NAPA pad P/N UP 7020M)

M300/M400 uses 12"x3" rear brake shoe (NAPA shoe P/N UP 358R)
M500/M600 uses 15"x4" rear brake shoe (NAPA shoe P/N SS 88)

Dave

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

while standing behind the motor it starts and runs in counter clock wise rotation. so while standing in front of motor home, the motor is running clock wise.

Based on observing my engine that is a normal 440-3 rotation.  You do not have a reverse rotation motor.

Dave

[ClydesdaleKevin]

And even if it did rotate in reverse, it wouldn't effect the shape and configuration of a stock fan shroud.  I'd give AZ RV Salvage a call again about getting a new stock fan shroud.  They are VERY important for proper engine cooling.

Kev

[tiliman]

Hi Dave, you are right - i have never been around dodge motors before i bought this MH. always had ford, Chevy, Pontiac and the like. after i bought the fan shroud from az rv salvage, is when i noticed the fan was way to small for the opening. think it was my first or second post in this thread is when i payed attention to dodge motor rotation. when i was much much younger i had the old muscle cars, someone was always breaking motor mounts on the drivers side, from all the torke ( sp ). doing power stands. ( standing on break pedel and gas at the same time. so anyway order a 20 inch standard rotation fan, should be here today. hopfully this will take care of over heating probs. thanks for sticking with me on this.

John.
PS. there was a choice of standard or reverse rotation on amazon, that started all of this. lol. the pictures were worth a thousand words!!

[bluebird]

Some serpentine belt driven water pumps are reverse rotation, so the fan would have to be the same. There is no way to have a reverse rotating engine, in a wheeled vehicle. I do know Chevy had a lot of reverse rotating water pumps, even in same year vehicles. I had a pretty newly rebuilt water pump sitting on the shelf a few years ago, stuck it on my first drag car engine until the electric pump showed up. Ran hotter than heck, they don't move very much water running backwards. Not sure a clutch for a fan would be different or not, may be.

[tiliman]

bluebird i was wondering if your chevy 454 motor/engine turns in the same direction as the 440? trying to learn something here . i used to put a lot of faith in what JEGS on line had to say. but who knows now days.

john

[bluebird]

The fan on my 454 turns reverse to the crankshaft I believe. It is a serpentine system. My 80 Itasca with a 454 turned clock wise just like the crank shaft. I can check for sure tomorrow if you like. I've never seen or heard of an engine that turns any thing other than clockwise, that why the torque or the engine will lift the left front tire more than the right. Even with a 4 link rear setup most of us guys have to run a bit of preload to keep the rear tires loaded evenly.

Just went out and fired it up, crankshaft clockwise, fan blade counter clock wise, same for my 05 Chevy truck. But they are both serpentine belt setup. Now this is looking at it from the front of the vehicle.

Pontiac  distributer turns opposite direction than chevy, but the crankshaft both turns the same direction. I don't see how a water pump  and fan can turn opposite the crank shaft on a v belt system. You sure you have the correct fan?

   http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4005

[tiliman]

yea i do have the right fan now. i can really feel the air blowing now. but does anyone have a source for a 3 inch spacer for dodge? I do have a 2 inch on it now, but it does not quite go inside the fan shroud. and there is still about 2 1/2 inches between blade edge and radiator.  it does need to be inside the shroud a little bit. is that right?

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-3-1-4-Inch-COOLING-FAN-SPACER-Radiator-Cooling-Fan-Blade-Spacer-/300908473020

or
use a 1" and a 2" spacer together.

it does need to be inside the shroud a little bit. is that right?

Yes

Dave

[henryblair]

I have no idea what a 440-4 is, but Dodge did install a passenger car 440 in some of the very late motor homes.  When Chrysler/Iacocca got the federal loan guarantee, they had to give up the mid to heavy truck business.  RV chassis were a money-maker for them.  Supposedly, they ran the plants wide open to make these chassis.  Some of the later ones had a real mixture of parts.  The non-forged crank 440's had the 440-3 water pump, but a much larger harmonic balancer since they were externally balanced.  They have the same center dump exhaust manifolds as the 440-3.


Henry

[PwrWgnWalt]

The only time i have an over heating problem is climbing hills, other than that it runs at about 180 210, with no tstat, full flow.

If I read your comment right, I would sure recommend installing a thermostat - the correct 'skirted' kind for this engine.  Other posts cover this in-depth, and I believe you will solve your overheating problem with this fix.

[tiliman]

thanks to eveyones input, i am now running at normal temp!! 160 210 depending on load of engine and outside temp. there were multiple problems with the rv. the fan was way to small for size of engine, a 17 inch flex fan with out clutch, the fan its self was about 5 inches to far away from radiator. so with or with out t-stat made no difference in heat dispersion. also installed fan shroud provided by phoenix rv salvage.
Especially want to thank Dave for his patience, taking the time to provide pictures and diagrams. have installed new 19 and 3/8 inch fan and fan spacers to bring fan to half inch clearance of radiator. installed new t-stat, 160. will still need to watch engine temp as i do live in az. and climbing big hills. 110 to 115 degrees of ambient temp is still just plane hot out side. a fully loaded, 26 ft. class A is asking a lot from any size engine i believe.
thanks again to all
john

[ClydesdaleKevin]

 Glad you installed a thermostat.  They are VERY important to channel the coolant properly, especially in the 440 and 413.  Skirted thermostat required to get the coolant where it is intended to go in the proper volumes.


Kev