440 Lifters rattle

vincewarde · June 11, 2013, 09:39 PM

Still working on our 440-3 - we have stopped the exhaust leaks, but we still have a "ticking" sound. We have pulled each of the lifters and some of them "rattle" when shaken. Is this normal?

Stripe · June 11, 2013, 11:44 PM

How's the oil and it's level? I know this is a basic question, but it gives me somewhere to start.
Start small, work our way up from there..

Fredric

vincewarde · June 12, 2013, 12:18 AM

Oil is good, oil pressure is good, and we tried flushing the engine and it's nice and clean now. I even pulled the pan to make sure the pickup was OK. I still have what sounds like a valve tick - so we opened it up to remove the lifters. Several of the lifters will rattle when shaken hard, but none will rattle when simply inverted. This is the first OHV push rod motor I have worked on - most of my experience has been on OHC and DOHC 4 cyl motors. I have no idea how much, if any "lifter rattle" is normal.

Stripe · June 12, 2013, 12:40 AM

Okay then, maybe we should determine if it is in fact the lifters or just the rocker arms.. If you have a stethoscope, or access to one put it to the valve cover. If the noise is coming from there, then it could more likely be your rocker arms. Also, does the noise quiet down as the motor warms up?
So far though, from what I have read, that ticking in the 440 could just be normal

Fredric

007 · June 12, 2013, 01:55 AM

backin the day new lifters wereabout 60.00.we/ i also have been known to replace rocker arms ( lip in the bottom) and check the rocker shaftes. me , i'd go with new lifters, jmo

007 · June 12, 2013, 01:58 AM

if they rattle ,there not pumped up

vincewarde · June 12, 2013, 03:06 PM

Quote from: Coachmanm500 on June 12, 2013, 12:40 AM
Okay then, maybe we should determine if it is in fact the lifters or just the rocker arms.. If you have a stethoscope, or access to one put it to the valve cover. If the noise is coming from there, then it could more likely be your rocker arms.

We tried that before we tore it apart and we were unable to identify the precise location of the noise. I think if it was coming from one bank of rocker arms (or one rocker arm) we would have been able to tell that this was the case. Based on this, I tend to think it's deeper in the motor.

However, I doubt that the rocker arms were replaced in the rebuild done a mere 3,000 miles ago - so it is possible that the problem lies there.

QuoteAlso, does the noise quiet down as the motor warms up?

Nope, it stays the same.

QuoteSo far though, from what I have read, that ticking in the 440 could just be normal

I am beginning to wonder if this is the case.

I am also wondering if we should disassemble the lifters and clean them, given that this motor sat for a long time and had a lot of sludge buildup in it.

Froggy1936 · June 12, 2013, 07:19 PM

An engine rebuilt 3000 mi ago would have no sludge even if it sat for 50 yrs . Something is fishy here . Sludge comes from blowby at the piston rings carbon unburnt fuel etc Not from anything else !Frank

vincewarde · June 12, 2013, 11:23 PM

Quote from: Froggy1936 on June 12, 2013, 07:19 PM
An engine rebuilt 3000 mi ago would have no sludge even if it sat for 50 yrs . Something is fishy here . Sludge comes from blowby at the piston rings carbon unburnt fuel etc Not from anything else !Frank

A compression test is definitely on the to do list.

vincewarde · June 12, 2013, 11:34 PM

I have just finished tearing down all 16 lifters. They were all fine. None were gummed up. A machinist we are working with says that the ticking could be rocker arms, or as he put it, "some engines just tick". I just have a hard time with the idea that there is not a problem we need to fix.

ClydesdaleKevin · June 13, 2013, 09:46 AM

LOL Vince. Sometimes that's just the nature of the beast. Keep an ear on it and make sure it doesn't get any worse, but other than that, I'd say just fly with it.

I had a Jeep Cherokee with around 300K on a 4.0 I6. Boy did it tick! Sounded more like a diesel than a gas engine. And it ran and ran and ran and ran, never burned a drop of oil, and had perfect compression. Original miles, no rebuild. If you've checked everything else, I'd say don't worry about it other than to make sure it doesn't get any worse.

Kev

Froggy1936 · June 13, 2013, 11:05 AM

Noise in an engine can come from every part that is moving wrist pins being one of the hardest to diagnoise and find .Unlike something hitting the dipstick etc . I would not worry to much about it. Make sure you lube the bottom of the lifters upon reinstalling them and if there is a rattle in any of them that could be your myestery noise They are not an expensive item you could just replace them all and eliminate them from the list Dont for get the special lube for camshafts !!!!!! And dont forget to soak them in oil and make sure they are pumped up Frank

vincewarde · June 13, 2013, 03:16 PM

Quote from: Froggy1936 on June 13, 2013, 11:05 AMAnd dont forget to soak them in oil and make sure they are pumped up Frank

Wow, my machinist said to make sure they were not pumped up.

bluebird · June 13, 2013, 06:16 PM

Never heard that one before. I'd be looking for a new machinist. I've built many new and rebuilt several engines and have always made sure the lifters were soaked in oil. Worst thing on a fresh tear down is lack of oil, on start up . Every body I know primes an engine before firing one.

legomybago · June 14, 2013, 12:20 PM

Grab each valve at the spring, and see how far they move back and forth. I had a mystery tick on a Ford FE that drove me nuts, then I finally discovered a really sloppy valve guide. The heads were newly rebuilt too. Didnt use that machinist again!!!

vincewarde · June 14, 2013, 03:45 PM

I'm going to put assembly lube on the base and lube the outside of the lifter with oil (including pushrod seat), then spin the engine with the starter motor before firing the engine. If they don't pump up, I will pull and soak them. I have been all over several different board and there is a huge split over "soak or not to soak, that is the question". Half of the people say soak, the other half say not to soak. Everybody says to lube the friction surfaces. I'll let you know how it works.

vincewarde · June 15, 2013, 08:30 PM

OK, today I went over to the MH to reinstall the rockers and pushrods (lifters were already in). I thought that this would be simple - just start the bolts, put the pushrods into the proper place on the rockers and tighten the bolts down evenly. Well, it worked great (twice!) except for one pushrod that bent both times. I would have thought that instead of bending the pushrod, the valve and valve spring would compress - but that did not happen on this one valve. Why?

I also noted that the valve spring appears to to be "leaning" a bit towards the rear of the vehicle. Could this be the problem? Could it be binding?

I have posted a bunch of photos so you can see the problem. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

bluebird · June 15, 2013, 09:42 PM

Hate to tell you this but I believe you have the rocker arm assemblies on upside down.

vincewarde · June 15, 2013, 10:00 PM

Thank you! If I had simply looked at my shop manual this would not have happened! At least it is an easy fix!

bluebird · June 15, 2013, 10:12 PM

When you take the rocker shaft back off, make sure the valve keepers stayed in the retainer, especially the one you said looked like it was leaning. If the valve spring was tilted enough it could have loosened the valve keeper also. Take a brass hammer, if you have one and hit the top of the valve to make sure they are still seated. If a keeper has come out of its seat and you start it, it could drop that valve. It won't be pretty if that happens.

If you don't have a brass hammer, you can use a ball peen hammer and a 3/8 extension to use on top of the valve. Don't hit the top of the valve directly with a hammer.

Also the lifter that has the bent push rod, looks like it is collapsed.

007 · June 16, 2013, 12:10 AM

To set the rocker shaft in place, first line up all the rockers at the same angle on the shaft, then touch the rocker tips to the valve stems, and set the shaft into its bosses. The other end of the rockers should fall right onto the pushrods. Now you can tighten down the shaft bolts and double-check that each pushrod is in place. Here is one more place that you need to make a critical clearance check. Since this rocker design is nonadjustable, make sure none of the lifter plungers are bottomed out when each lifter is on the flat (valve closed) part of the cam. Just push on each rocker to look for at least a sixteenth-inch of travel. With no oil in the lifers at this point, the plunger will move easily. The reason for this check is because the depth of the valve seats, the length of the valves, and machining the block deck and the heads can all move the pushrod end of the rockers closer to the lifters. The lifters have a decent working range, but if one is bottoming out, it could partially hold a valve open and then you have a problem. The only way to adjust this clearance is with a different length pushrod. You might get away with swapping the pushrods around a bit, but most likely you'll need an undersized rod. Fortunately, they are available from Mancini. Wait to prelube the rockers until you are ready to bolt on the valve covers. View Related Article

Read more: http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_0608_rebuilding_mopar_440_engine/photo_23.html#ixzz2WLekswaQ

can't remember , don't the rockers have a left and right so to speak so they line up strainght with the pushrod and also hit the valve corectly. hope you didn;t bend a valve , as you said it looks crooked . with the rocker shaft off put somthing straight ( ruler / straight edge ect) across the tops of the valves they should be PRETTY close to the same height

007 · June 16, 2013, 12:15 AM

as bluebird said, Also the lifter that has the bent push rod, looks like it is collapsed.

or over comperssed and the valve hit the piston which bent the push rod , somthings wrong there for sure!! stuck/bent valve??

vincewarde · June 17, 2013, 12:10 AM

Quote from: bluebird5750 on June 15, 2013, 10:12 PM
When you take the rocker shaft back off, make sure the valve keepers stayed in the retainer, especially the one you said looked like it was leaning. If the valve spring was tilted enough it could have loosened the valve keeper also. Take a brass hammer, if you have one and hit the top of the valve to make sure they are still seated. If a keeper has come out of its seat and you start it, it could drop that valve. It won't be pretty if that happens.

If you don't have a brass hammer, you can use a ball peen hammer and a 3/8 extension to use on top of the valve. Don't hit the top of the valve directly with a hammer.

Also the lifter that has the bent push rod, looks like it is collapsed.

Yes, I do have a brass hammer in my gunsmithing kit, and I will check them as you suggested.

vincewarde · June 17, 2013, 12:15 AM

Quote from: 007 on June 16, 2013, 12:15 AM
as bluebird said, Also the lifter that has the bent push rod, looks like it is collapsed.

or over compressed and the valve hit the piston which bent the push rod , somthings wrong there for sure!! stuck/bent valve??

I think it may be at least partially because I put the rockers on upside down

Also, I plan on checking the questionable valve spring/stem and then spinning the engine with the starter to make sure everything is OK, including that all the lifters pump up.

vincewarde · June 17, 2013, 12:21 AM

Quote from: 007 on June 16, 2013, 12:15 AM
as bluebird said, Also the lifter that has the bent push rod, looks like it is collapsed.

or over compressed and the valve hit the piston which bent the push rod , something's wrong there for sure!! stuck/bent valve??

It probably is compressed, but I think it is bent because the rocker is upside down. The engine was not operated or even turned over with the bent pushrod and it was not bent when we took it apart. We shall see what happens when we put it together correctly.