Valve Cover Gaskets and Torque

[Oz]

Sent: 4/9/2004 2:10 PM

Is there a better replacement gasket for valve covers than the stock cork ones?

Black RTV seems to be the accepted sealant to use, how about the copper RTV sealant?

The manual states 40 inch pounds for torquing the bolts.  My inch pound torque wrench doesn't even go that low!  Is there a rule of thumb to use like, "Tighten down by hand with socket and extension and then go 2 more turns." or something?

- Sob



From: Jim83Itasca
Sent: 4/9/2004 5:28 PM

Hi Sob
I use copper "high temp silicon" and apply on the gasket to cover only, let it set up for a few hours and drop them on (dry) on the gasket to head side.
The bolts are probably 1/4 by twenty thread and dont take much to torque down and TWO turns from the bottom out position is way to much.
I just snug them down (slight pressure) and add about 1/2 turn and never have leaks.

Jim



From: Jim83Itasca
Sent: 4/9/2004 5:31 PM

Ummmm i forgot to add the gasket    answer ! felpro with a steel shim in between the rubber.

Jim



From: denison
Sent: 4/9/2004 5:44 PM

I used whatever cork looking gasket came with the others I bought. After cleaning and degreasing things, I glued the cork gasket into the covers (with RTV silicone gasket in the toothpaste tube), and put them on the head with the bolts barely snugged, and a day later removed the covers and put a smaller bead of the RTV onto the dent the head had made in the cork - then put them back on, but not all that tight. I already had one bolt hole with some stripped threads. A week later I resnugged the bolts before I replaced the engine cover. I am sure it will leak again someday, but maybe not before I need to rebuild the engine anyway. 



From: Jim83Itasca
Sent: 4/9/2004 9:57 PM

Hi again SOB
Finally found my good book and it shows (for chebby's) 4 foot pounds so yours has to be about the same. Good luck

Jim



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 4/10/2004 8:32 AM

Good info.  What's not good is that I probrobly tightened the one valve cover down to about 15 ft lbs or so.  I'll have to take it easy on the other one and watch the first one and redo it if it leaks.

I had already gotten the stock, cork gaskets so, whenever I need to change them again, I'll try the Felpro.  I put sealant inside the edge of the cover, smoothed it around evenly, put the gasket in the cover and lightly pressed it in place, put the sealant on the gasket, smoothed it around evenly, then placed it on the head and (over)tightened it down.

I suppose hand tightening with the socket and extension plus a half turn will do it.  Thanks guys, we'll see what happens.

- Sob



From: elandan2
Sent: 4/10/2004 11:26 AM

Hi Sob,  I used the Felpro gaskets the last time I changed mine.  Then I sealed them with Permetex non hardening sealant.  I found that it seals much better than RTV on oil soaked gaskets.  Good luck.  Rick



From: Jhoffa_
Sent: 4/10/2004 6:30 PM

I use either a gasket OR silicone, depending on the circumstances, but not both.

What I think you will find (and especially with Cork gaskets) is the silicone is soooo slick, that under certain conditions you can actually force it right through the gasket surface and split the middle right out of the gasket.

Dry cork is fine for many low/no pressure gaskets that don't have to actually retain a fluid, but merely re-direct it. If you want the best, however moulded silicone gaskets are the best.

Believe it or not, you can take one of those gaskets that's been in use for over a hundred thousand miles, toss it into a high temp parts cleaner, pull it out, and use it again. It's as good as new.

For example: The valve cover gaskets on my crown vic have 150,000 miles plus, they''ve been on and off countless times and they're still 100%.

"Hope this helps"



From: Jhoffa_
Sent: 4/10/2004 6:35 PM

PS: I hate to say this and please don't take it the wrong way, but I've been following your posts and you're WAY overbuilding this RV.

Many times the stock parts are the BEST parts. It's your baby and so long as you are happy with it, more power to you! But, you are spending allot of time and money on things that could most likely be put to good use elsewhere.

Regards and best wishes...

Logan 



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 4/11/2004 8:52 AM

I appreciate the honest opinion, Logan, and I do understand your point.  I would place you in the "Denison's Conservative Winnebago Repair Party".  He has long been a firm backer of, "If it was good enough then, and it did the job, it's good enough now."  His '73 Indian is tangible testimony which I had the pleasure to experience first hand at the NECWJ.  This is certainly wise thinking and, it also eliminates the complications and aggravations of unanticipated modifications.

However, I don't believe I'm way overbuilding it.  It already had a high output coil.  I added the 750cfm carb and intake.  That's all.  Nothing with the cam or lifters or headers or exhaust or ignition module or anything else that would be a huge expense vs little improvement for the investment. 

The selection I made creates a substantial increase in hp and torque in off-idle to 5,000 rpm, where it would be of best use.  I don't see any problem with improving on the original when it is possible and within what one is willing to spend.  If the improvements mean stronger power when towing a boat,  climbing grades, and using more of this workhorse engine's potential then, to me, it was worth the investment. 

If it turns out that there is no noticeable added benefits, believe me, I'll post it in bold letters so others don't waste their money but, this is a proven combination for this engine and I spent a long time evaluating it in other groups and with numerous experienced "motorheads", if you will, to get as many opinions as possible.  I can't say that I received one negative response with a technical reason for it.  This is the same approach I used to choose not to install headers.  Still, all these improvements are each individuals choice based on what they want and are willing to pay, no?

Nearly all the rest of what I need is cosmetic so, I was happy to be able to splurge for the power,... for once.  Thanks again and, if you can provide any technical reasoning why this is not a good upgrade, please... share it! - Sob



From: denison
Sent: 4/11/2004 9:05 AM

But changing around is fun.... and a very good way to learn about what improves and what just works.
I hope everybody keeps the old parts though - so you can put the driveline back to original if needed. Eventually collectors will be looking for old Winnebagos in original condition, the way they do now with Model A Fords and other antique cars.



From: Jhoffa_
Sent: 4/12/2004 12:59 AM

By all means, and I would never imply otherwise.

Your motor home is yours and as such it should be a refelction of you and your interests. I didn't mean any offence, and have experience with many of the parts you listed.. but at the end of the day it's your and you have to drive it.

That's what matters most.

Regards, best wishes.



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 4/12/2004 10:32 AM

No offense taken at all, to be sure!  This is a complete learning experience for me all around as I never, ever worked on an automotive engine before getting my Winnie.  It's also the first chance I've ever had to be able to "hop up" a little since it is an old, simple engine and I don't have to pay incredible $$$ to have it done.  I'm learning and having a lot of fun with it in the process.  If I end-up screwing it all up in the end, well.... that won't be anything new for me anyway! 

I've always learned from trial... and LOTs of error. - Sob



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 4/22/2004 7:09 PM

I re-torqued the bolts today, a bit tighter than before, and it reduced the leak by about 50% but the doghouse still doubles as a smoke house.

JHoffa, is there a source you can cite for those molded silicone gaskets you mention?  I've had this same problem now, twice.  If I didn't see a smoke screen coming off the passenger side of the engine, I don't think I'd know how to act! - Sob



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 4/22/2004 7:10 PM

Also, how about sources for the Felpro's. - Sob



From: Sea Hag
Sent: 4/23/2004 12:15 PM

Sob - I have a part number for the Fel Pro (by Federal -Mogul Corporation ) That have worked so far on my chief and also our southwind 440 3 . Part Number VS 50145 R in large print on box also says Part # R 50145 in smaller print . they are a rubber coated high temperature fiber material instead and are non bendable instaed of cork . says they fit all dodge truck Big blocks 1963 to 1980 . Sea Hag 



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 4/24/2004 4:19 AM

Thanks Sea Hag.  I have this sneaking suspicion that the leak may not be from the valve cover.  I had the nasty opportunity to pass a Ford the other day that was trailing a 1.5 mile smoke screen of a head gasket leak.  It smelled and looked very familiar.  I noticed the PO had replaced the opposite side exhaust manifold gasket and I found the other one in a package on-board.  I need to search the messages but, if I remember correctly (and a co-worker who was a MH mechanic for 10 years told me), the center bolts on the 440 went into the engine block cooling system.  If this is true, I noticed that's where the smoke is coming from.  I'm going to pull the manifold and take a look.  I should be able to see signs of leakage from the valve cover once it's off.  If so, I'll replace the valve cover seal and the manifold seal.  If not, then I've found the culprit. - Sob



From: denison
Sent: 4/24/2004 6:59 AM

Can you just remove those two bolts, coat the threads with sealant, and put them back - to check for that leak source? After draining the coolant of course, and waiting 24 hours for the sealant to cure before refilling. 



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 4/24/2004 9:40 PM

That's an excellent idea dave!  I'm just debating if it wouldn't be good to take the whole thing down since I need to drain the fluid anyway and check the manifold for cracks, the valve cover for leaks, and change the spark plugs for good measure.  I believe the manifold was welded at the top center at one point.  I just can't see anything with the set-up as it is.  I already have a replacement gasket but, on the other hand, if I use your suggestion, it will be less time and will tell me one way or the other, won't it?  Ok, you helped me convice me.  Thanks again, - Sob



From: denison
Sent: 4/25/2004 6:56 AM

Im fond of using my spark plug thread cleaner too. Unless I can unscrew the plugs with my fingers once they are loose, I run that thread tap in there. Even on the drivers side....



From: Jhoffa_
Sent: 4/26/2004 12:24 AM

"JHoffa, is there a source you can cite for those molded silicone gaskets you mention?"

No, mine were OEM, I think. They were on the car when I got it.

I think some of the aftermarket suppliers make them avaliable for older engines though.


Summit Racing, etc might be able to help you. 



From: zInGiErKiLgOtYaRneR1
Sent: 4/26/2004 10:46 PM

Thanks for the Felpro # Sea Hag, they were 8 bucks cheaper than cork and I think I finally got the passenger side to seal. I follwed the advice from another post and mounted them with silicone on the cover and let it dry first before I put them on. BTW Felpro recommends 90 inch pounds but I don't have a wrench that reads that low.
Hugh



From: Liv42dayOK
Sent: 5/16/2004 10:44 PM

I took the first trip with the new valve covers this weekend.  I had my wife follow me in the car.   When we got to the campground, I asked her if she saw any smoke.  She said, "A little at first but, none the rest of the way."  I said, "WHAT?  NO SMOKE?!?!?"  I had the engine idling so I quickly stuck my head up under the wheel well fully expecting to see the familiar "Stanley Steamer" effect but, guess what?... NO SMOKE!  I couldn't believe it!  Not even a whisp.

I was camping thought maybe the gaskets finally "seated".  I realized that I hadn't had the engine up to full operating temp under load on the road since I changed the gaskets.  Well, maybe that's what happened.  Can't say as I know for sure but, I had no smoke on the way home either so, something sure went my way for once and... I don't have to mess with the exhaust manifold... yet.  - Sob

[intofire1]

Hi all,
Anyone have a part number for new aluminum valve covers I have seen on some of your 440 engines. X-mas gift for the wife.
Thanks Gil

[jkilbert]

one little thing we found out at the fire dept about cork gaskets and silicon.... they dont go together.  on a brand new engine the rad tanks bolted on with cork gaskets, the company also used silicon to seal it. they started to leak after a few months. i had this same thing with oil pan and valve covers. apparently yhe silicon breaks down the cork.  a friend on mine retired as a service manager from dodge and he said all they used was black silicone in most applications

[sasktrini]

Waking up an ancient thread.  I'm working on my 79 with a 440-RB.  The cork gaskets weren't available locally, and I ended up buying new Felpro ones that are fibre-impregnated rubber... and considerably thicker than the original cork ones.  I had to remove the washer / flange things from the bolts in order to reuse them... they were no longer long enough to thread into the head with the added gasket thickness.  However, this gasket should prevent the valve cover from distorting though I removed the flanges from the bolts.

Just an FYI for anyone digging into their 440s!