Battery Bay... P.O. config (eww)

[sasktrini]

I'm trying to figure out what the P.O. had going on here (1979 Dodge M400 Diplomat).  I took this picture before taking all the batteries home to charge (my rig is still an hour drive away from home).  My first thought when I saw it, and the P.O. said "I'm pretty sure the batteries are dead" was that this is not wired right... all three 12V batteries were wired in parallel... coach and chassis together.  12V- are all along the bottom of the pic.




My guess is that the red wires are 12V+ for coach (run up to a cabinet behind the stepwell), 12V+ chassis is attached to the deep cycle battery on the right (verified), and then there is a ground to the battery box that is attached to the deep cycle on the right, and an engine ground attached to the deep cycle battery on the left (I KNOW SMH haha).  THEN there is a white fabric-covered wire that I have no idea what it is for, and it is loose in the box (what might this be from?).  There is no isolator, or visible evidence like bolt holes where one may have previously been installed.

My first observation is that the P.O. probably connected all the batteries in parallel so the alternator would charge them all.  Unfortunately, it contributed to draining them all, and it made it a bear to try to jump-start the rig with booster cables... three dead batteries instead of one soaking up the boost.  Either there was an isolator elsewhere that was defective, and this was a workaround, or there never was an isolator.  If there was one, where else might it be?

My question, assuming there is no isolator equipped, is that I can get an electronic isolator to wire in between the 12V+ of the chassis battery and the coach battery (deep cycle) bank, bring in an alternator feed to trigger it, as well as a MOM feed (my coach has no Dual / Norm / MOM switch).  Then I would leave the 12V- connections paralleled between all three batteries, and connect both ground cables to a terminating battery (if I arrange the two deep cycle coach batteries on the left, and chassis battery on the right, with 12V+ coach connected on the left battery, the best place for the ground connections would be the centre battery, I'm thinking, one parallel cable length for the chassis battery to ground through).

Does that make the most sense as far as working with the P.O. setup temporarily?  Actually, most temporarily, I plan to drive it home with the coach batteries completely isolated since I don't know about a triggering feed for an isolator anyway, UNLESS for a one hour drive, it's okay to have all three paralleled, or if the rig needs coach power for driving...  Thoughts?  Thanks in advance.

[Oz]

You don't need the coach battery or coach power while driving.  All driving funcitons, lights, gauges, clearance markers... all run off the chassis battery.  You can un-hook two and just run off one for driving and install an isolator or one of the newer fancy types which read the battery levels and direct re-charging to whichever is low, but always the chassis battery first.

[sasktrini]

Thanks, Mark.  That is reassuring, knowing I only need to have the one battery to drive with...  I have other mysteries to solve but, I don't want that to prevent me from driving the RV home.

With the stray white wire that is in my battery box, I'm guessing that it may be associated with the coach system monitor or as an isolator signal... I don't know.  Does it not belong there?  I've almost finished reading through the related forum categories and the chassis wiring diagrams for the 79 M400, but just not sure.  Not having the RV in my driveway right now is a problem as well, as I can't just go outside and trace the installation into the device it's physically connected to.

Thanks again for your help.

[Oz]

This may be very helpful to you for battery wiring.  Note the winnebago wiring diagram contact.  VERY important and critical source.

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,6365.msg15294.html#msg15294

Also, I don't know if your chassis is an M300, 400, or 500 but take a look at Dave's Place.  You'll find a TON of incredibly helpfulf tech info, but for this topic, look at the wiring diagram section - 1979:

http://dave78chieftain.zxq.net/

[sasktrini]

Yup... actually have been studying the 79 M400 diagrams extensively, even coloring the wires in the diagram for a better visual.  Also the different coach wiring diagrams you have for other models.  And Dave's tips.  Been lurking for a while.  Maybe there is an Apollo or Diplomat owner that may recognize the oddball wire.


Regardless, I won't need it to drive the RV home.  When I do, I'll trace it and let you know what I find.

[circleD]

I know this is late but what about a constant on solenoid with a toggle switch and hooked to a 12 volt ignition source. I had that on a truck for 10 years for running emergency lights on the FD. Leave the switch on and you can start up with all batteries and charge while driving. If you use the house batteries or they are low then turn the switch off before cranking the engine and you will isolate them until you start going down the road and flip the switch back on to charge. Yes it is a manual way of doing it but cheap and it works. I had many nights I would have a low battery from leaving my KCs on and strobes but just flipped the switch to isolate and sometime soon use a charger to get a full charge. And I think that white wire with that kind of insulation is a monitoring wire for a gauge somewhere.

[sasktrini]

I have been sorting through my wiring, and spent much of today in the grass… tearing off old electrical tape, pulling circuits that I do not want to have passed through the floor (speakers, TV coax all gone).  I did a solar install a month ago, so have done a little work in my battery compartment.

Here's what I found (referring to the picture in the original post)…

I have no idea what the white wires were… weren't connected to anything! smh
One red wire was for the converter 12V+.  Found near the generator compartment that the converter 12V- was connected to a frame ground nearby.
The other red wire in the top left runs to the firewall, which according the the 1979 Dodge M400 wiring diagram runs to the chassis fuse panel.  It seems connected to the wrong battery.  Now I know.

This was "Corey's Battery Compartment v1.1", after connecting the solar.  The couple stray wires running off my Interstates are short inverter cables.  Hopefully tomorrow night, I'll be finished v1.2.



I was confused, as I was searching for a red wire coming through the floor from the fridge to be somehow connected to the house battery, but I think it is energized based on alternator current.

The three battery cables that remain are to the starter, engine ground and body ground (bolted to the floor of the battery compartment).

I'm making a remote wiring point for my new old generator, inverter and converter, instead of running all these wires up to the battery compartment.

1) House +, cut and grommeted a new access for 10' 2 gauge from battery + to Bussman fuse in generator compartment (generator, converter and inverter 12V+ will junction on other side of fuse)
2) House -, relocated body ground cable to side of battery compartment, bolted the 10' 2 gauge to the external side of same body ground bolt, to same body ground location near the generator compartment, to be junctioned with generator, converter and inverter 12V-

Now only wiring that remains are House + cable , Body - cable, engine - cable, starter + cable, Chassis Battery +, solar controller.  I haven't figured out yet if my rig is equipped with a battery isolator solenoid at the firewall, but I doubt it… I see no connections to tie both banks together for simultaneous charging.  So I got a 90A Battery Isolator to add to the battery compartment, which will require an alternator / MOM wire and a couple battery patch cables.  Also soon, I will add another Bussman fuse or circuit breaker in the battery box, though I used durable PVC grommets to feed the new house + cable, thickly insulated.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Make your self a connection diagram so you will know what you did a year from now.

Dave

[Froggy1936]

Yea Especially fuse locations and what they protect . After my recent repairs i had a hard time finding where i fused the fuel pump for the generator  13 yrs ago  Frank

[sasktrini]

Thanks guys. I think it will actually be simpler… It only sounds complicated because I think out loud.


Simple terms… I'm using thick cable to create remote posts for coach + and - in the generator box, and from there I'll connect my major devices (gen, conv and inv) which are all within a two foot run to the new posts. 

[PwrWgnWalt]

Hi Corey;

Sounds like you have it sorted out.  But, if you have questions or issues, Dave's home-made wiring diagrams are extra helpful.   

Also you can take a look at my re wiring posts at http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,6765.0.html
I went through a similar dilemma.

-Walt

[sasktrini]

Oh, I do!  You (and CWVRV community) have created a gold mine of info!  I hope I can pull off a new twist on all the ideas here for someone else to benefit from.

[sasktrini]

Battery bay work took me to the generator box today.  From the battery box, see a black 2 ga connection on the positive post and the positive solar lead.  The matching ground lead is on the backside of the ground lead bolted to the side.





The black 2 ga leads go to the generator box.  The battery + from the right to the fuse.  Battery - and coach - on the back side of the white ground lead from the generator.  On the other side of the fuse is the house + and generator +.

[circleD]

Now that's an upgrade. My battery compartment is deep and narrow so trying to get out old rusty and corroded stuff was a pain. Like Frank said please label with a marker or label maker. Every pic I took I put into sub folders so all motor stuff is in that one. I've had to revisit my own work and forgot what rigging I DID. Good job on those new beefy wires and connectors. Can't go wrong there. Keep it up man 

[sasktrini]

Thank you kindly!  So far, I only have my inverter working from the new cables.  As an aside, after dropping a fuel tank, running a fuel line from it, and hanging it back up, "stupid me" was about a foot short on my fuel hose length to test my generator!  Finished cutting all my vents and holes for wiring and fuel lines… got all dirty and rusty from crawling under the RV… and couldn't give the generator a crank!  At least my wiring is looking good.

I'd like to get my hands on a Dymo Labelmaker!  But for now, I'm seeing all the wiring in my dreams / nightmares… This simplified it.  Batteries and solar in the battery bay, generator and coach in the generator bay.

I suppose things could get ugly inside the coach if I'm not careful.  Better start labelling.

Thing that ticked me off the most, with all the work I'm doing, was having to disconnect so many cables and wires from the batteries if I wanted to change something.  Plus having so many negative wires and cables going directly to the batteries cluttered the battery bay up so much.  Plus since I had changed my approach / design, but had already cut new holes in my battery box for + and - cables to enter, I needed to put a stop to that pattern.  I guess next year, I'll be filling some extra holes.

[pvoth1111]

in the second to last pic above....is that a ground on the left?.....it seems a bit crusty...

[sasktrini]

Yeah it is... the "original?"... I haven't yet bothered to even grind down the mating surfaces, but I wanted to get done with my generator install first.

[sasktrini]

Well this is darned near done!


I have three new batteries.  A larger engine battery and two 6V golf cart batteries!  I had one of my old class 27s barely functional, the other two batteries dead.  Wow, what a difference (price and reserve power)!


I also cleaned the rat's nest up a little bit, since I had all my batteries out.  I figured out that I could use the isolator posts to attach my connections for either side, and only have the positive cable on each battery to fiddle with if I need.  It's a little crowded, but I think the only line I may need to add is for car stereo and amplifiers off the coach side.


Right now, I don't have the engine battery connected to the isolator, but it's there in case I need a boost for my generator.  Also gotta replace my red tape on my ground cable.





I ran the generator quite long yesterday, but ran on my inverter alone for about 5 hours with no low voltage alarms… 6V golf cart batteries are awesome.  2 X 6V in series has about 50% more reserve than my 2 X 12V in parallel were rated for… but also cost me about $420 CAD after core refund and taxes.  Seems like they should save me fuel from running the generator less.


Oh yeah… I finally installed a solid state isolator from Princess Auto.  It's trigger signal is the alternator wire, and designed to only charge "Battery 1" until its full, and then charge "Battery 2".  I wish I had gotten a mechanical one that I could activate with a Dual / MOM switch, but we'll see how this works.  It was a little below freezing, but the golf cart batteries had enough amperage to easily start my generator… Maybe I won't need to worry about that sort of wiring after all.

[sasktrini]

So I'm inching towards firing up the motorhome… replaced my timing chain and buttoned the engine up.  But I am observing something that has not been readily apparent to me before, and I haven't seen this in any diagrams.


I wanted to make sure my isolator was wired in correctly, and was getting a decent look at the wiring off of the alternator.  I worked my way backwards from the two mysterious red wires… one from the fridge and one from the battery (now the new isolator).  They lead to the firewall to a pair of circuit breakers, and from there to an solenoid-type isolator.  The isolator is switched in ACC or RUN, which means that theoretically I could run the fridge with the engine off.  It's intended to be used while running.








So I can ignore the fridge-side of the isolator.  The other post is basically a junction block between the alternator and battery (maybe more.. it's hard to see).


This is a little confusing to me, because the Dodge diagrams show them junction at the starter relay. So I guess a little more investigation.  I think I'll eventually relocate this solenoid isolator to the battery box where I've terminated the alternator wire.


Anyway, does this sound familiar to any of you?  Did you find isolators for your fridge burner in the battery box?