Exhaust Manifold temp so high, they glow!

[jointventure77]

Sent: 12/21/2005 2:48 PM

installed new 3 inch dual exhaust on 440 to solve problem of manifold turning red ,brite red above idle..didn't work...so hot copper gasket is damaged...so tore out engine...overhaul...new rings,brgs,valves,stock cam,lifters,push rods,oilpump,fuelpump,waterpump,fan clutch,oilcooler,transmission cooler,distributor,plugs,wires,controlbox,radiator,hoses,belts,every bolt nut washer except head bolts,freeze plugs,seals,gaskets,valve covers,timing chain and gears,valve springs and retaining clips,vacuum lines,fuel line,transmission cooler lines,pressure and temp sending units,heater hose.......runs outstanding........vacuum@24.....oilpressure@60.....temp@180...fuelmpg@6-6.5......plenty of power ...stillcherry red/////   installed tubular headers and rap with fiberglass.......can see header glowing through fiberglass////////changed carb to holly and made many jet adjustments....the more richer i went the worse it ran but no change in exhaust color.....back to newly recon carter runs great......still cherry red ....how hot are they suppost to run?  scares me...tired of hearing tat  tat  tat  from leaking burnt gasket...new harm balance...timing is right on money...no air flow restrictions....ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS



From: trapshooter-bt99
Sent: 12/21/2005 3:46 PM

hellow joint venture
                          bob here, well i ran into this problem on a small block chevy i built, for shure, its eather the timing is off, or the carb is too lean, period, 
check with my friends at HOLLEY TECH LINE , 1-270-781-9741
EATHER OR WILL CAUSE A VEARY HOT RUNNING MOTOR- exhust side,check compression in hot cyclander, just a few minutes of overheating,espescally,on a cherry red pipe will ,burn hole in piston,destroy compression ring, or take out valve guide,or burn valve exh,    let me know how you make out       gb bob



From: denison
Sent: 12/21/2005 4:46 PM

You seem to have done most everything....but you might want to take your distributor to a shop that can run the advance curve on it. I believe the distributors in the motorhomes, on the 440-3 engines, have a different advance setup than the passenger car engines did.
Does anyone know if it is normal for the exhaust to run hot enough to glow? I know the EGT can reach 1100 degrees, on a long ungrade. I thought 1200 degrees was about when you started to see the glowing red though.



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 12/21/2005 5:12 PM

Joint venture,
I've run into this before.
First, I'll attack one common cause of this: ETHANOL. Unless you have to use it, running a torquey big block on ehtanol will cause post ignition and increased manifold temperatures.

Check your mechanical valve timing, and electronic timing. Sounds like your timing chain could have slipped or worn, the advance curve on the distributor is off, your camshaft is worn out, or your carb is set way too rich, but at 24lbs vacuum, I doubt it's the carb, and not likely the cam, either unless it's an "unsuitable"cam....

Another mistake that has been made is the tendency for 440 owners (usually a previous owner) to treat the 440-3 like the automotive hot rod 440. I can tell you that a long duration high lift cam will contribute greatly to your current problem, and not give you any better performance.

But it's definitately a timing issue, if there is in fact no "not yet discovered" exhaust restriction, which could also cause cherry red manifolds, but if that was the case, the front pipes would also eventually turn red.


Dave above is right, the 440 cast iron maifolds will begin to glow at approximately 1250 degrees, but running normally they will reach 900-1050 degrees, so another 200 degrees isn't hard to reach with improper mechanical timing, producing post ignition fuel burn, and that could be contirbuted to by an over-rich mixture.

I hope this gives you some ideas on where to look next, let us know what happens!

Tom



From: hudsonmand
Sent: 12/21/2005 8:33 PM

check for possible restriction in intake manifold runners



From: jointventure77
Sent: 12/22/2005 8:15 AM

i have driven1000 miles since rebuild and it has ran so good!!!!! the engine is a 440-1 very sure on this..the kicker to the problem is #3and#6 cyl exhaust ports do not glow...these cyl have the exhaust crossover that travels into the intake warmup cavity...i polished all intake ports while rebuild and traced the flow from each port to carb... also cleaned carbon from preheat chamber and ports...pipe plugs are installed in carb throat looking down into intake...1was not installed before rebuild...i set timing with dial indicator removing all backlash with 1degree offset key....no slack present between cam crank...bought cam and most of parts from 440source in CA...VERY PLEASED  with them...spent hours with engine cover off driving,,,adjusting distributor ...always back to original spot.....changed distributor drive gear shaft and bushing....note     bought moroso super blue max plug wires buggy would not run wires sparked everywhere...put cheap autozone back on....ran fine....will install exhaust crossover under transmission ....maybe help it to breath better              TAKING ALL ADVICE I CAN GET 



From: jointventure77
Sent: 12/30/2005 1:04 AM

little confused have 43 bites on a burnt spark plug wire and 6 on a rebuilt engine running hot exhaust temp while confronting suggestions.as they are sent to me??? 



From: jointventure77  (Original Message)
Sent: 1/17/2006 10:02 AM

changed distributor....timed engine...no exhaust temp change..,[still fighting glowing headers]..will attempt to flood engine by adjusting carter carb to see if change will happen..if no change i will lean and starve the beast for some result ....if no change i will yank out new bone stock cam and replace..could cam distributor drive gear be machined off a few degrees..it was rather inexpensive..this problem will be solved one way or my way.....chime in please///..thanks for the last comments good info



From: Jim83Itasca
Sent: 1/25/2006 1:19 PM

Is this thread still in play?..................If so the 2 main reasons for "glowing exhaust" is late timing and/or lean carb condition.
The "Vacuum advance" could be blown so with a (mighty vac) that would be a easy test, air leak test is another simple test by the use of "Berryman B-12" but I use propane (Mapp gas) for really hard to detect vacuum leaks.
Have you timed the engine with the "Vacuum advance" disconnected?.........that is a must do.

Jim



From: terrapin619
Sent: 1/27/2006 10:34 PM

Do tell how you use the Mapp gas?? Are you spraying it on an engine???



From: Jim83Itasca
Sent: 1/28/2006 12:30 AM

I just open the valve slightly (no flame) and mosey around the intake system with the engine at idle.
I prefer "Berryman B-12" spray however sometimes resorting (last resort) to the propane bottle hasta be done.

Jim 



From: Enigma960080
Sent: 1/28/2006 1:29 PM

Its  been  a while  since  I  have  built  motors, and I  am beginning  to  suffer  from CRS...  however, this  exerpt  puzzles me greatly...<<i set timing with dial indicator removing all backlash with 1degree offset key>>
I  recall  using an  offset  key  in a  350 stroker  motor to  advance the  cam in relationship  to the  crank,  but  I  fail to  see how  this  would  help  in a motorhome.
Please  let me know if I'm way off base....



From: olivereaman
Sent: 1/29/2006 9:22 AM

This may not have any bearing on your problem, but when I was a kid my Dad had Internation trucks with gas engines. He bought a used truck that wasn't running correctly. He decided that he wasn't going to fix the old engine because of time constraints and ordered a brand new short block from IH. After removing the heads from the old motor we determined that the only thing wrong with that motor was the valve keepers had come off on one cylinder.

Now...I'm getting to the part that may effect your problem. After sending the heads out to be planed we installed them on the new shortblock. The thing was the most pwerful truck we had ever had it also ran the exhaust very hot. . At about 800 miles it blew a head gasket and scored two cylinders. . International sent a man down to exam the motor, he bored the cylinders with a hone and he put a new gasket on it and sent it out. At about 2500 miles it was skipping badly and blew the heater core out. International sent a guy out again, this guy removed the heads and checked them for thickness. They were way under specs. He told us that the compression was so high in the engine that it would never last. We put on two new heads and ran the motor for a couple hundred thousand miles. The previous owners had cut the heads and then we cut also, the shop must not have checked them for specs.

Don't know if that's your problem or not. but if you've checked everything else....



From: Bill_Rowles
Sent: 1/31/2006 7:37 PM

I would be interested in your cylinder compression readings. Have the valve seats been reground and did you do a compression test beforeand /or after the rebuild work you described here?
Bill Rowles



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 2/1/2006 9:35 AM

Jointventure-

Did you have any luck yet?

It still sounds like Cam to Timing Chain misalignment, or improper Cam to me.

Shouldn't ge the exhaust that hot. A crossover pipe will help, but not solve the temp issue.

Tom



From: jointventure77
Sent: 2/1/2006 12:06 PM

new distributor and vacuum advance made no change..will try to adjust carb.but after carefully examination of plugs i really hate tomake a change to fuel.they are perfect color.will change electronic firing box ,coil,and check voltage at coil.someone recommended that fire at plugs might be weak and unburned fuel could be problem.



From: Bill_Rowles
Sent: 2/2/2006 10:48 AM

I believe your problem is in the valve train, especially indicated in the exhaust valves (except the two cylinders that don't over-heat the exhaust outlet pipe (header). The hydraulic valve lifter pistons(inside the lifter body) are bottomed in their clylinder causing the valve to not fully seat and therefore leak burning fuel into the exhaust port during the power stroke. The root cause of such a condition would be valve stems too long, valve seats too deep, push rods too long, heads machined too thin at surface to engine block, wrong valve lifters, or some combination of these conditions. If I were to diagnose what was really wrong, I would start with a compression test wherein you may observe higher compression on the 2 cylinders that are not a problem compared to the other six that are overheating the exhaust ports. Then I would measure some parts to see if they are too long . Then I would disassemble an exhaust valve lifter on a cylinder that is running too hot , drain out all oil and reassemble the lifter dry, and then put the lifter into the engine with a push rod, rocker arm shaft, etc. to check the valve train lash (end clearance) with the lifter fully collapsed (minimum length).
If you do this test and measurement sequence we may be able to help you as you progress.
Bill Rowles



From: jointventure77
Sent: 2/2/2006 3:42 PM

will check compression tonight..will have results in morning.thanks for the advice



From: jointventure77
Sent: 2/2/2006 5:56 PM

here is the compression results..#3 #4 #5 #6 #7 show 140psi//#1 #2 show 135psi #8shows 145 psi//test conducted with oil pressure @65psi using oil pump priming rod and drill and all plugs removed..tested all cylinders 3 times



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 2/2/2006 8:14 PM

Jointventure,

Check this reprint:

Tip from Steve:

Is your Imperial running sluggishly and turning the exhaust manifolds orange with heat?  The 440 in my RV was running sluggishly and turned the exhaust manifolds bright orange while driving.  The cure was to replace the factory Holley 4bbl with a spare Holley 4160-3310 750 cfm with vacuum secondary that I kept as a spare. It was just sitting in my shed so...I replaced the float needles and seats ($20 and 10 min time) and Viola!!...the RV runs and starts just like my Imperial. With a "pump" of the gas pedal, then a flick of the key.  There is a world of difference in the way it runs now.  Even better than before the hot manifold incident.  I am sure glad it was the carburetor and not a plugged exhaust (which is unlikely since it is 5in i.d.)..or a jumped timing chain that I could never see how or have room to replace.  I still can't believe the 440 survived such punishment...and for 30+ miles! As I drove, looking down at the engine as it had orange manifolds and strained hauling 15,000+lbs of RV at hi-way speeds and almost wide-open throttle, I wondered if it was going to make it home.  It did.  So, if your Imperial is running bad, lift the hood and see if your manifolds look like they are going to melt off of your engine.

from

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Exhaust/manifold.htm

Maybe this is something to check.... if you can. Your compression sems to show fairly normal wear, and is also subject to any intake or exhaust restrictions.

Tom



From: Bill_Rowles
Sent: 2/2/2006 9:36 PM

Your compression readings don't confirm my hypothesis and I believe your values are accurate. The only possible explanation of how the condition I suggested could be true but the test did not find it would be that the test was done with cold engine parts and the problem is observed with hot parts (especially exhaust valves). The only thing I could suggest, if the carburetor is clearly not too rich, would be to collapse an exhaust valve lifter as I described earlier and measure the total end clearance (lash) of the cam/lifter/pushrod/rockerarm/valve cold, to confirm it has room for parts to grow as they get hot so the valve can fully close then..........
Have you tried a carb removed from a 440 that doesn't overheat the exhaust?
My 440-3 runs well with the stock thermoquad (Carter) but I had to do a lot of work on the carb to stop the excess fuel flow caused by float with a hole in it and selant failure on plastic parts in the fuel bowl leaking gas into manifold. She runs hot under load but the steel headers don't glow orange/red and the cooling water temp is normal in all conditions of air temp and load.
Bill Rowles



From: Bill_Rowles
Sent: 2/2/2006 9:42 PM

An after thought, how old is your gasoline and what do you know about possible additives such as alcohol, ether, or other chemicals someone may have added to preserve it or clean fuel or combustion or ? whatever people do.
Bill Rowles



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 2/2/2006 10:39 PM

I think I already covered this in the second post....

"First, I'll attack one common cause of this: ETHANOL.........."

Tom



From: jointventure77
Sent: 2/3/2006 10:47 AM

thanks for the continued help! the next step? will hook up portable fuel tank outside motorhome to fuel inlet on pump.will use top grade gasoline making sure it is ethanol free!!!!!post results//then i will check valve clearance need to change valve cover gaskets anyway ,their burnt again.!..the carb???i plan on closing the choke a little while running and watch for change.2500rpmvery sure heads have not been surfaced and are to spec.



From: jointventure77
Sent: 2/3/2006 10:56 AM

wait wait could high oil pressure cause the lifters to become too tight so that the valve cant close completly at high rpm? have high volume pump and after oil is hot pressure stays around 58 60 psi at 2600rpm.



From: Bill_Rowles
Sent: 2/3/2006 7:38 PM

I have never heard of a case where high oil pressure pumped valve lifters too much. The classic problem with hydraulic valve lifters is when they "pump up" (causing the valves to not close) due to engine speed over 4000 or 5000 RPM......not your situation.
Also, didn't your engine overheat the headers even before the rebuild? Was the high volume oil pump in the engine then? Have the valve lifters been replaced in the rebuild work?
Bill Rowles



From: Bill_Rowles
Sent: 2/4/2006 7:13 AM

I just read the post and replies earlier this year on "what fuel octane should I use?" and the thought developed..........You say you have a 440-1 which we know should not be used in a motor home..........maybe you could try a water injection system to change combustion temp .......I have never used one but if I were in your situation with a great new engine that behaves like yours , I would sure give it a try hoping the exhaust would get cooler and fuel economy would improve....I think water injection was developed to reduce detonation and improve fuel economy many years ago. Does anybody else have thoughts/experiece with this approach to the situation?
Bill Rowles



From: kd4pbs-1
Sent: 2/5/2006 10:54 AM

Just my 2 cents...
When tuning the ECM on my Corvette, I've noticed that if I intentionally richen the mixture, it will make the headers start to glow. Also, when I first got it, it had weak valve springs, and would cause the headers to glow at hight RPM (4500+) due to the exhaust valves floating. I'm sure the latter is not your problem, but I would try to adjust the A/F ratio towards the lean side and see if that happens. Time to buy some jets



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 2/6/2006 8:19 AM

I can't help but still think "mechanical cam timing" and "fuel system"

440-1 was a car motor, but not radically different enough to casue this poroblem.

HOWEVER,
what heads are on the 440-1? the 440-3 heads? Or the factory 440-1 heads.
Here's the clincher:
if you have the original 44-3 heads,  it should run just fine, and I don't have an answer...

BUT.....

If you have 440-1 "smog" heads, you are GUARANTEED to be running an overrich condition with an original 440-3 carb (i don't care whether it's a Holley or Carter) which would indeed lead to Cherry red manifolds or header pipes, and thusly, burnt valve cover gaskets from the excess heat.

Ok... try some different jets, or try another carb off something else (everybody should have a spare Carb!)

Tom



From: jointventure77
Sent: 2/6/2006 10:26 AM

here is the latest..installed new plugs.installed new coil .hoked up 92 octane fuel to pump..ran at 2700rpm,,,no change..closed choke3/4 and kept rpm up...slight darkening of header..stared at the carter for a minute..hated to do it..grabed little flathead and turned the center metering rod adjusting screw in about 4 turns..slight change//was happy something happend...rolled up step..drove to driveway..unbelievable.burned tires down the driveway..i just thought it ran good before..cant get over it..i had not adjusted it since i installed it new..it helped somewhat towards the manifold heat..they still turn red at high rpm..adjusted distributor while driving..no change.glad im moving in the right direction..the plugs really didnt show a lean condition..maybe i didnot.read it right.will run it hard and recheck plugs tuesday..check coil voltage ..was 7.5 with key on..9.7during starting      all the news for now      thanks



From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 2/6/2006 3:57 PM

Your running a Carter Thermoquad?  Thought you said you replaced with a holley.  Most here have replaced the thermoquad with an Edelbrock.  Anyway, turning that screw on a thermoquad does change A/F mixture.  You made the mixture richer by turning the screw clockwise (raises the rods out of the jets).  The screw is supposed to be a factory only adjustment for smog settings (even the Edelbroack allows adjustment of A/F mixture).  The rods are taper stepped to enrichen the mixture.  The farther the rod is pulled out of the jets (low speed/cruise/high speed steps) the richer the A/F mixture.  If you happen to screw up (like I did) and not read the instructions "Warning - Do not adjust that screw!" when rebuilding a thermoquad, then you can cause A/F mixture problems.  Metering rod position is controlled by both a lever (connected to primary throttle plate butterfly shaft) and vacume.  The lever raises the rod in porportion to throttle setting (overrides the vacume feature of  metering rod position).  This lifts the tapered rods out of the jets thereby enriching the mixture.  More throttle, more gas is allowed through the jets.  Additionally, the metering rod piston is pulled down against the lever by engine vacume however, the vacume also has to overcome spring tension.  Most metering rod A/F probs are attributed to a weak spring (age).  When the engine is under a load, the vacume drops allowing the metering rod piston to rise under spring force (above the lever position).  This action richens the mixture by pulling the rods out of the jets allowing a richer mixture.  If spring is weak, less vacume is needed resulting in a lean mixture.   There are several articles on the net about thermoquad issues but as yet I have not really found one discussing how to reset that center metering rod screw (smog issue).  If you purchased a remanufactured carb, they may not have had the equipment to recalibrate the metering rod.  Previous owner of the carb may have adjusted the center screw prior to remanufacturing.
Possible issues:
1.  Metering rod piston and/or piston bore is scored resulting in to low vacume allowing the spring to push the piston up higher (richer) than it should be. .
2.  Spring to weak (not allowing piston to rise high enough) resulting in to lean a mixture (adjustment srew may allow you to account for this).
3.  Adjustment screw rod (the screw you turned) bent causing the piston to bind (to lean).  I have this issue.
4.  Bent metering rod - not raising up out of jets (lean) or not going back in (rich)
5.  Worn metering rods or jets (to rich)
6.  Clogged vacume ports allowing spring to push piston up (rich)

A side note - the metering rod setup performs the same basic function as the power valve in a holley.  Enrichen the mixture until the main circuits can kick in.  The vacume has to drop to around 4-6 inches before the spring will push the piston up)   The metering rods also control the A/F of those main circuits (rod position governs fuel flow through jets).
This all sounds complex but makes sense if you see all the pieces and how they interreact with each other.

Dave



From: SeaRaySRV160
Sent: 2/12/2006 3:28 PM

Since I have a 413 ...

I can only comment from what I have read in a publication on the Dodge engines. When Dodge came up with the 440 c.i. engine they also had to de-tune it a bit to get the compression ratio down enough to burn the now lead-free fuel. Seems the Dodge Boys cut a few corners here. Instead of doing it the right(and more costly) way by altering the volume in the cylinder head, they elected to save a few bucks and simply shortened the stroke to produce a greater combustion chamber volume by adding a little combustion chamber volume in the cylinder itself. Cheap & efficient solution? Well on paper, yes. However, now the deck height of the block is well above the piston head at T.D.C, leading to less than optimal exhausting of the spent fuel/air mixture after combustion. This has been linked to higher exhaust temps in some of the 440 engines. I don't remember reading if Dodge ever really fixed this problem down the line in following years. It is possible that at least part of your high temp problem is engineered in. Best of luck.

[SLEETH]

was the cure ever found?

[legomybago]

This was my conclusion as to my own confusion of the adjustment of that metering rod screw...I couldn't find anything on the web really explaining it either when I went through a couple different Thermoquads for the first time. Thanks Dave for this. I would also like to know if he solved his hot running fo-fo-tee i??

From: DaveVa78Chieftain
Sent: 2/6/2006 3:57 PM

Your running a Carter Thermoquad?  Thought you said you replaced with a holley.  Most here have replaced the thermoquad with an Edelbrock.  Anyway, turning that screw on a thermoquad does change A/F mixture.  You made the mixture richer by turning the screw clockwise (raises the rods out of the jets).  The screw is supposed to be a factory only adjustment for smog settings (even the Edelbroack allows adjustment of A/F mixture).  The rods are taper stepped to enrichen the mixture.  The farther the rod is pulled out of the jets (low speed/cruise/high speed steps) the richer the A/F mixture.  If you happen to screw up (like I did) and not read the instructions "Warning - Do not adjust that screw!" when rebuilding a thermoquad, then you can cause A/F mixture problems.  Metering rod position is controlled by both a lever (connected to primary throttle plate butterfly shaft) and vacume.  The lever raises the rod in porportion to throttle setting (overrides the vacume feature of  metering rod position).  This lifts the tapered rods out of the jets thereby enriching the mixture.  More throttle, more gas is allowed through the jets.  Additionally, the metering rod piston is pulled down against the lever by engine vacume however, the vacume also has to overcome spring tension.  Most metering rod A/F probs are attributed to a weak spring (age).  When the engine is under a load, the vacume drops allowing the metering rod piston to rise under spring force (above the lever position).  This action richens the mixture by pulling the rods out of the jets allowing a richer mixture.  If spring is weak, less vacume is needed resulting in a lean mixture.   There are several articles on the net about thermoquad issues but as yet I have not really found one discussing how to reset that center metering rod screw (smog issue).  If you purchased a remanufactured carb, they may not have had the equipment to recalibrate the metering rod.  Previous owner of the carb may have adjusted the center screw prior to remanufacturing.
Possible issues:
1.  Metering rod piston and/or piston bore is scored resulting in to low vacume allowing the spring to push the piston up higher (richer) than it should be. .
2.  Spring to weak (not allowing piston to rise high enough) resulting in to lean a mixture (adjustment srew may allow you to account for this).
3.  Adjustment screw rod (the screw you turned) bent causing the piston to bind (to lean).  I have this issue.
4.  Bent metering rod - not raising up out of jets (lean) or not going back in (rich)
5.  Worn metering rods or jets (to rich)
6.  Clogged vacume ports allowing spring to push piston up (rich)

A side note - the metering rod setup performs the same basic function as the power valve in a holley.  Enrichen the mixture until the main circuits can kick in.  The vacume has to drop to around 4-6 inches before the spring will push the piston up)   The metering rods also control the A/F of those main circuits (rod position governs fuel flow through jets).
This all sounds complex but makes sense if you see all the pieces and how they interreact with each other.

Dave

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

I would also like to know if he solved his hot running fo-fo-tee

I do not know nor recall from 10 years ago.  Hope the info helps.

[uglydukwling]

This probably isn't relevant to the 440, but for some engines this was considered normal. My manual for the GMC 270 (as installed in a DUKW) says that it's normal for the exhaust manifold to glow under heavy load. Mind you, this was probably an extreme case of overloading. The DUKW was an amphibious vehicle, so it had a truck engine pushing a very un-streamlined boat, a situation in which it should have had a water cooled manifold, but didn't. The point is that GM felt a glowing exhaust manifold wasn't something to worry about.

[solracem]

Was this issue ever fixed? I'm having the same problem....

[Rickf1985]

Under what conditions are you seeing that? They should never get that hot. Retarded timing or running too rich.

[solracem]

What do most people have their initial timing and total timing set to?

[Rickf1985]

It the motor is bone stock and the emissions stuff is all intact then it should be 4 degrees BTDC. If you have removed the emissions stuff you can add a couple untill it pings and then back off 2 degrees. If you have changed the vacuum around or if something is amiss in the emissions system then all bets are off!

[Rickf1985]

You need to disconnect and plug the vacuum advance and get under there and see where the timing is right now so you know what you are starting with. If it is at 4 degrees then you have an issue with the vacuum lines or controls for the emissions system. One other possibility is that the carb is dumping gas and the A.I.R. system is burning the extra in the manifolds. It would be running like crap if that were so. I cannot see it running good and looking like it does.

[solracem]

It the motor is bone stock and the emissions stuff is all intact then it should be 4 degrees BTDC. If you have removed the emissions stuff you can add a couple untill it pings and then back off 2 degrees. If you have changed the vacuum around or if something is amiss in the emissions system then all bets are off!

Rick - As always, thank you for the advice!! Currently I have it about 8 degrees BTDC. So, It looks like I need to back it off. All of the emissions stuff is still in tact.

What I did was pull the engine and have it rebuilt. Now that I have it back in I'm having issues with it getting too hot and not idling correctly. I'll go ahead an plug the vacuum advance and get to 4 degrees. I'm guessing I may have the carb dumping gas in the A.I.R as well. I have a lot of backfire happening.

I'll be out there again on wednesday and will take a video to post here.

[tmsnyder]

Another good first step would be to open up the distributor and check to see that your advance springs and weights are all freely moving and relatively clean.  If they are gunked up or rusty and aren't working, this would not give the spark advance that the motor needs to light the flame earlier, which is needed as the rpm increases from idle.

[solracem]

tm - I did that and we're good there.

[Rickf1985]

If it is not pinging then leave the timing where it is, advanced will not cause that issue. Cam timing being off will cause that issue, it is possible that they got the cam timing off by one tooth and compensated the distributor. The only way to tell is to pull the timing cover or put a degree wheel on it. Unless you know fully how to use a degree wheel then it is better to pull the cover but if you just had the motor rebuilt it is best to just take it in for a warranty claim. What you have is NOT right. The not idling correctly would go right along with the cam timing being off.

[solracem]

If it is not pinging then leave the timing where it is, advanced will not cause that issue. Cam timing being off will cause that issue, it is possible that they got the cam timing off by one tooth and compensated the distributor. The only way to tell is to pull the timing cover or put a degree wheel on it. Unless you know fully how to use a degree wheel then it is better to pull the cover but if you just had the motor rebuilt it is best to just take it in for a warranty claim. What you have is NOT right. The not idling correctly would go right along with the cam timing being off.

So, do you think the cam timing being off is something they can fix while the engine is in? I'd hate to have to pull it again.

[Rickf1985]

They can but the entire front of the engine has to be exposed and the timing cover has to come off. I would call them and explain the situation, show them the pictures. In those pictures what RPM was the engine running? Were you driving down the road? The only other possible thing I can think of is the carb dumping massive amounts of gas in there but it would be bogging something terrible. The problem is that if the cam timing is advanced then that will compensate and give a better feel at mid range which would cover the carb symptoms to an extent. I would definitely call the rebuilder and see what they say.

[tmsnyder]

Can you check the fuel pressure?  Assuming that you put on a new fuel pump, maybe the new pump pressure is too high and it's pushing past the float valve. Even just disconnect the line at the carburetor, connect a pressure gauge and crank the engine (borrow from auto parts store).  It'll run on the fuel in the carb, enough for you to get a reading.