rear end body sag

[UK-Winnie]

I'm still totally loving Mini but I have noticed the back end of the camper body seems to have sagged a bit on the chassis and I'm just wondering whether I need to check it out somehow or whether it's just the saggyness of age that I may as well just ignore and get on with it (like on my own body - LOL).

So - there are no leaks or water damage that I can see anywhere, however the rear door snags in the frame and the shelves in the cupboard (you say closet) just inside the door are sloping down towards the outside showing that the outer casing must have drooped down a bit.  Also when I drive her the back cupboard doors sometimes come open suggesting there is some flexing in the overall frame.

I'm guessing that some degree of frame flexing is normal so the doors coming lose may be just bad catches (and it's obvious they aren't that good any more).  But are there any checks I should/can do, or should I just drive on and not worry about it?

I appreciate it's probably all a question of degree and of course the degree is hard to describe in words, but any ideas of measurements I might take or how I might try jacking things up or something like that would be very welcome.

Thanks

Steve

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

While rear spring sag is common, the one thing you want to ensure is that the metal joists that go side to side across the chassis frame are not giving out due to rust.

Dave 

[UK-Winnie]

Dave, all the chassis and associated steelwork is rock solid, it's one of the reasons I went for her.  This seems to be something in the body shell or how it's fixed.

[Rickf1985]

Slide in campers are famous for this, I have one now that is that way.  They do it because there is no real support behind the bed of the truck. On yours do the trucks frame rails go all the way to the back of the unit?

Rick

[Lefty]

It may be possible to re-level the body on the frame. If you can locate the bolts where the body bolts to the chassis and remove them, you might be able to lift the body a small amount and place a spacer in between the body and the frame equal to the amount of lift needed at each point. Then replace the bolts (with longer ones if necessary). This would be a tedious job, requiring that you first levelled the chassis off the ground on jackstands, then measured the body at many points to see how much lift would be needed at the various points. record those measurements, then carefully jack the body up at each point one by one installing the new spacers. I would not rebolt the chassis to the body until all the spacers were in place, as tightening one point down might make it difficult to jack up the next point without causing too much stress.
As for the doors and cabinetry, most of them are flexible enough to allow for a little body flex during driving without damage, and should be ok if you are careful when lifting the body and do not try to lift too far in one go. Example: If you only need 3/4"-1" of lift at the spot needing the most lift, then you probably could do all of them in one go... but if the spot needing the most lift was over that, you may be better off lifting all of them about halfway, install temporary spacers, then lift all of them the rest. That way you would not be lifting one point over an inch higher than the rest of the body at any one time... this might prevent damage from too much stress on the body. Slow and careful would be best.

[TerryH]

Addition to Lefty's reply:
If you do lift the coach from the chassis you may want to first open all doors etc. - cabinets, fridge, stove to prevent possible damage from binding.

Terry

[Stripe]

UK-Winnie, could you take Starboard, Port, aft and forward profile pics for me?  Planar view is not necessary.

[UK-Winnie]

Rick - the chassis goes all the way to the back. 

I was wondering if something was doable along the lines Lefty has described but I'm not really clear about how/where the body attaches or where it would be safe to try jacking it.  I don't want to punch a hole in it or rip the side skirt off or something.  Maybe if I can use some timbers to spread the load out under the floor I'll open all the doors like Terry suggests and then try jacking under the area where it has definitely dropped and see if anything moves - that may give me some extra clues about what is going on.

However, I strongly suspect that the floor has not dropped, only the outer shell, and I can't see any way to jack that part on it's own except under the side skirts which look too weak to go jacking against.

I reckon it has sagged by maximum 1 inch at the worst part and it doesn't really bother me except I don't want it to get worse or start damaging other areas through flexing.

Stripe - at the moment she's parked in my yard which is on a slope so probably I need to take photos when she's out on flat ground somewhere like the super-market car park.

[Stripe]

Tescos are okay, but Sainsburys has less horsemeat in the beef..

[UK-Winnie]

My nearest is in fact Morrisons but Tescos is a close second and it has a much bigger flatter car park.

I had a pack of those horse burgers; they tasted OK but when the story broke the wife made me throw the rest away :-(

[UK-Winnie]

Hmmmmm..... I just found this in an old post:

"As you might have noticed a time or two, some winnies seem to have sags in the exterior walls, around the front, or behind the rear wheels. This is a sign of a failed or failing floor structure, and  it's not easy to fix when it's visibly noticeable from the exterior. taking care of the floor structure in a winnie is pretty important, since the floor holds up the entire coach."

So maybe I need to take a closer look under the floor right at the edges where it meets the walls. 

[Stripe]

Ooh, Morrisons..  I think I bought my first Irn Bru there... It's like Dr. Pepper on STEROIDS!  LOVE THAT STUFF now if I could just find it here..

Did not know about that post. But that was the reason for my asking for those photos. I might be able to use just a side view full shot and the Winnie doesn't need to be level per say..

[Rickf1985]

You might want to crawl underneath (well, maybe not) and start looking at the underbody from the frame out towards the sides starting near the front. I am thinking that as you make your way from front to back you will see a change in how it looks and then you can zero in on it.

[Froggy1936]

UK When they built these the side and rear panel are made like sandwiches The outer skin Then the Styerfoam Then the inner laun Also below floor level there is a inner aluminum layer on the inside that goes just above the floor There is a wood strip laid into the panel at floor level Then screwed to the floor about ea foot from the outside. Then a molding installed over the screws . The interior fixtures also support the sides Cabinets etc . Either the screws have rusted away or the floor has deteriorated Or the wood strip has rotted . I would remove from the inside whatever seat cabinet or whatever is at the place of worst sag If you cant see the problem from underneath You should be able to identify it from the inside I replaced about 4 ft of the wood strip on 1 side from the bottom working between the 2 panel skins Frank

[UK-Winnie]

I'm not sure how much a side photo will disclose as I'm confident there's some sag in the leaf springs as well whilst the front end rides quite high, so that alone makes the back look baggy.

Thanks Frank for the comments on the construction that's really helpful.  I had already noticed a part of the "sandwich" exposed behind the cooker area where some PO has changed some pipes and wires around.

Anyway, the weather is fine here and it's Saturday so I'm going to go and do some crawling about.  If the floor edges look good I'll move on to investigate the wood strip and fixings - I wouldn't be surprised if it's a combination of those two.

[UK-Winnie]

Well the floor looks OK as much as I can see.  The side walls have pulled down against the fixings on the adjacent cupboards - I can see that the screws (which go in from the inside facing out) have all got bent upwards and are splitting the wood of the cabinet frames.

I didn't try removing the external trim strip.  I want to try jacking up the shell first to establish that it's even feasible to do it - but I just can't see any place that I can put in a jack to lift it - any ideas? (apart from turning the whole rig upside down and giving it a shake !).

However, the weekend wasn't completely without progress.  After a lot of head scratching I found out why the alternator was weak - someone had wired the +ve field terminal to the wrong side of the ballast resistor!! - and the wife stripped all the Fablon TM from the inside and took all the cupboard doors/drawers out.

[Thundercloud]

Ok. A bit saggy huh? Have you ever run it off  W%uthe road hard or hit anything? Id just check structural things like frame to body mounts and try to rock your rig back and forth and listen for any moans and groans. Also, just a crazy idea but if you. Can find a good spot try putting a piece of wood inbetween a jack and the back body section and barley put some pressure. on it for a week or two and. see if it changes. Also inspect your floor for rote. Good luck. Chances are shes old but shell hold! And I spelt "rot" wrong

[UK-Winnie]

.... just a crazy idea but if you. Can find a good spot try putting a piece of wood inbetween a jack and the back body section and barley put some pressure. on it for a week or two and. see if it changes.

That's not a bad idea - I'll have to remove the rear rack as it's screwed into both the chassis and the body - and I guess I'd better put some support under there first just in case it's only the rack that's still holding it all up  !!!

[Froggy1936]

UK What i would do is lay a plank on the inside floor as close to the sagged exterior wall as possible , Removal of cabinets etc may be necc,  Then another plank at least a 2x6 x 6ft up against the ceiling then with a bottle jack and a 4x4 extension lift the body (have a helper to watch outside) Take a measurement from plank to plank first (so you have an idea of starting point) Then jack it up about an inch . Also i would remove outside trim strip because you will need to be able to install new 6 in long 3/8 Phillips head screws thru the wall into the floor after replaceing the 1x 3 wood that has rotted between the wall panels start this job by removeing lower edge molding pulling out styerfoam to acess rotted wood area (install the jack first so wall does not fall all the way to the ground ) Get some pics so we can enjoy your labors    Frank

[UK-Winnie]

Thanks Frank - so you're saying the wooden strip is panel thickness x 3 inches deep and then below that I presume more polymer goes down to the bottom edge.

Just to confirm, you are suggesting I try lifting it by (cautiously) jacking it internally between the floor and the ceiling?

I was wondering as I will have removed the outside trim strip, wood and lower filling then maybe at the same time I could rig something up (that won't slip !) to apply some lift under there as well.  I'd have to jack that off the floor so I would probably need to put axle stands under the chassis so I can climb in and out without it all rocking about.

It has dropped both sides aft of the rear wheels so as Lefty suggests I guess rather than try too much lifting all in one area I'll probably be better to do it in increments moving around the areas and just keep going until it all comes right (or as close to right as I can get).

Not sure how soon I can get to this, but I'll take pictures.

[Rickf1985]

If you get a 8 ft' 2X4 or whatever is close to that in the UK and hold it against the floor and the ceiling you should be able to see where the sag is. You will be holding a straight edge against something with a bend in it, once you find the bend, be it top or bottom, then you know where to start.

Rick

[cosmic]

I have some pictures in my album where I did exactly what frogy did. Forgive me for there is no written explanation on the pics, but its exactly the way frogy said it is. about 18 inches up or so till the wood stops.

album name cosmic

[Stripe]

Starting here Cosmic??
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=4692

[UK-Winnie]

Thanks - so it looks like below the floor level it could be wood all the way down.  Either way it has to come out.

The interior is in bits at the moment so it's a good time to do this.  I think I need to take a couple of days off work 

[Stripe]

You can do it. And take pics..