'73 Brave door hinge tightening

[Edmather]

Hi everyone,


The bottom hinge on my door has come loose, resulting in the door sagging. I really want to get everything tightened up again, but it looks like the only way to get to the hinge mounting screws is to remove the entire door frame. Surely there must be an easier way?!
If not, has anyone had the frame out? Sounds easy according to the Coach Manual. But then things often do in the book.
Any advice welcomed!



I was able to lift the door by jamming a screwdriver in, and then wiggle the bottom hinge piece back in, but it fell out again within about 3 open/close cycles for the door. Pretty hopeless.





If I do take the frame out, any idea of the sort of sealant that was used?


Thanks for any help. Hoping to get onto it with the father-in-law next week.


Thought you would like this picture of young Ranulph enjoying the swivel seat too.





Ed

[Oz]

Been there, done this.  Taking the door off is a real PITA.  If you have the Eyebrow Winnebagos Coach Service Manual, there is a detailed, exploded view of this.  The screws which hold the pieces of the frame into the wood are bad enough.  But the screws which hold the hinges on are even worse.  If you look on the inside of the coach, they're right where the steel frame is and there appeas to be no way to get at them unless you drill through them!  So, you have to remove the whole frame as one unit.  Door and all.  This is easier than tryinig to remove it piece by piece because of the hidden corner reinforcement screws which you can't get at until the entire frame is removed.

Take a look at this topic.  I had the same kind of hinge pin retainers you have.  A note on the sealant:  you can search "sealant" and get all kinds of references.  Basically, any good exterior caulking is good.  The best... use eternabond tape.  You won't have to ever seal it again in your lifetime.

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,4098.msg11767.html#msg11767

Then I had an issue with a broken one.  I didn't want to have to take the whole door & frame out yet again, so I used a pair of pliers and screwdriver and very carefully expanded the hinges so I could remove the pin.  After replacing it, I just as carefully crimped the hinge back over the pin. 

I highly suggest getting this extremely rare eManual for your coach.  It's one the most important tools you can have.
http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?action=store;sa=view;id=165

PS.  I did this before I had the manual and performed the extraction on a test vehicle in the junkyard.  It was a painful operation.  Thought it was going to be easy, but noooooo.   I "thought" each piece of the exterior frame was supposed to come off individually.  But after trying that, I still couldn't get the bloody pieces out, so I ripped the pieces out by force and discovered the hidden corner screws. 

[Stripe]

He should still be able to take the door itself off the frame though right?  At least that should make the rest of the work a bit easier?

[Oz]

Nope.  The screws which secure the hinge pin ends are on the back side of the door frame.  Believe me... I went through this whole thing, in detail, the hard way.

The only way to do it without taking off the door is to carefully spread the hinges open enough to slide out over the hinge pins without breaking them.  I ended up doing just that when I rebuilt my screen door.  Just snap one of those on the top or bottom hinge and then you have to go through the whole process AND get a replacement hinge as well.  I was unusually lucky.  Murphy's law would have been that I'd have done it and broke the very last one.

Aside from that, it's actually easier to take it out in one piece.

[Stripe]

Ok, I guess the first picture is misleading then..    It makes it look like there are only three bolts per hinge holding the outer door itself to the hinge..

[Oz]

Actually, you're right.  I didn't even notice that.  Mine must've had stripped screws because they were attached with rivets!  That would definitely make it easier!

[Stripe]

And on the plus side, Imma not going crazzzzy....

[Edmather]

Thanks for the advice guys. Sounds like I have to bite the bullet on this one; really don't fancy a short cut which ends up in new hinges!
I have the pa-in-law ready to go, so at least have enough hands to give it a go. I will report back once under way. Just hoping not to hit corroded screws. Everything is an impossible to get size here in the uk!
Ed

[Oz]

Hey!  I hope you didn't miss it...  YOU can take the door off first since you still have the original screws in the hinges.  That'll make it a lot easier to get the frame out since it won't be so bulky and heavy.  Just be careful when you take it out so as not to let it frame get bent.  And, don't overtighten the screws going back into the door when you reinstall it.  Apparently that's what my PO did... ergo, the rivets.

[Edmather]

Hi, yes clocked the rivets thing. Thank you. Making everything light sounds a good plan.
Also the door is bowed from someone trying to force it at some point (like every other camper in the world!) so when it's off plan to clamp it to a big solid steel bar to straighten it out again too. And look forward to a smooth door action from then on!
Ed

[Edmather]

Hi, looked up the sealant tape you mentioned. Do you mean the double sided stuff added between the side of the vehicle and the frame, or a layer on top of the frame?
Ed

[Oz]

The double sided kind.  Eternabond calls it "double stick" 
http://www.eternabond.com/DoubleStick-p/cr-ds.htm

You want to put the tape between the frame and body.

[Edmather]

Dear All,

I thought you would like to see the progress made today on the door mission.

Current state: door and frame out.
Next step: repair wooden lower subframe, then put it all back together.

All in all it went pretty well. The screws all came out of the sides and top of the frame easily, and we took the door off first as advised. These bolts came out without any trouble too. Not a PITA by any stretch. Mind you, one seized screw would have changed all of that.

Its interesting to note that the actual arrangement is quite different to the diagram in the body repair book. No screws through the inner faces of the frame as shown, and the surprise wood! Once the screws were out it was easy to leaver the frame out of the space.

The only issues were that the top rain cover had been sealed on with some mega mastic, or similar, so got very bent coming off. But I was able to bash it back into line while the metal remembered. Also the screws along the bottom were totally rusted out. When we got the frame out we were surprised to see a bottom rail of totally rotten out wood which will need replacing.

A few pictures:



Waiting for the next step.



Door and frame out.



Bottom rail with rotten wood removed.




Inside of frame with hinge screws. Not sure what the contact point in the frame is though.

So, hoping that my neighbour (a joiner) can knock up a hardwood bottom rail in the morning, and then we will see how it all goes back. Managed to get some eternabond to use. Its frighteningly expensive here, so I hope will do the job. Also going to thread lock the hinge screws in place to avoid having to do the same again.

Will keep you posted.

Ed

[Stripe]

Contact point?  Maybe for a door operated light??  I know mine has two. One to activate the extending stairs, the other to activate the light over the doorway..

[M & J]

Well Done Ed. Thank you for the pictures, they always help.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Looking good Ed.  Keep up the good work.

Dave

[Edmather]

Right; day two!


So we were able to cut a piece of hardwood that fitted snugly into the lower door frame and popped the frame back in to mock up.
Everything fitted back together nicely, and with the door hung too, the hinges held up well.


However, there was a significant bow to the door (forced at some point?), so the latch still isn't engaging, and the door sits a bit too low.


So, I had a go at removing the bow by clamping the door edge between two hefty steels. Seems to have helped. We also need to raise the door by a few mm, so we have stopped while I get hold of some nylon spacers. Thought about packing in with washers, but am worried about the wear on the hinge parts. Seems silly to rush it for the sake of a weeks pause.



Nice new bit of wood in there.



Door now much straighter, but still a bit too low.



Quite a bit of room at the 'top' of the hinge. Reckon a 4mm spacer will even things up nicely.



Door straightening method. Seems to have worked pretty well!


Will post again one the spacers are sourced and fitted.


Ed

[M & J]

Again, the pictures speak volumes. Thank you and well done so far.

[Stripe]

Indeed and take your time..  No rush, right?

[TerryH]

Ed
If you can locate a piece of Teflon you can make your own spacers. They'll last much longer and have an ingrained lubricating effect. I used to use Teflon to make replacement window glides when the originals were unobtainable. Never had one wear out. Most plastic/plexi/polycarbonate suppliers will have it and you should be able to get a small cut-off cheap.

[Froggy1936]

Edmather, The unknown contact could also be part of an alarm syestem , I had to install one on my entrance door also  Frank

[Gary Eddy]

You will be glad you took the time to do the job correctly.  I did this same project last fall.  Removed all screws from hinge pivots and reinstalled with locktight. Any that were worn were upsized.  Also added a second screw to lower hinge pivot that helps carry the load. Moved door up by adding stainless washers on pivot pin after filing parts square that were worn.
Standard butyl rubber tape works great and is an industry standard for doors. 

[Edmather]

So: its done!
And very pleased too. the door now latches with a good positive clunk and can even be locked.


Final stages:


So I managed to find some teflon washer just the right size (thanks for the material recommendation TerryH) and placed three at the bottom of the hinge, then replaced the other existing washers throughout the tower. Door swings much better now.

The bottom ones are the old plastic jobs, white ones are the new spangly teflon.



Little stack of three at the bottom.


However this didn't completely sort the problem. On close inspection of the door frame we found that the holes for the lowest hinges were about a 1/4 inch further away from the lip of the frame than the others. This meant that the door could never be straight, and the hinge top and bottom didn't tighten against the frame so instantly rotated. A quick session with a file soon oval-ised the holes and straightened the door up. Each screw now has thread lock too.


In terms of the seal, I was able to source some eternabond (again, recommendation much appreciated) hard to get over here. (And by-jimminy is it expensive!). Jeeez its sticky. If you ever wondered what it would feel like being the size of a fly and hitting a spiders web, I reckon this stuff must be it. Not an instant bond kind of stick, but a really progressive adhesion. We set a strip inside the frame, then cut away the excess. Tricky, but a long slice to one side, then a fast cutting action on the other while peeling the excess away did the job. Much like cutting through sinew: be fast with a sharp knife.


But its all back together now, and the fit of the door in the frame is much nicer.





So, thank you everyone for the help and advice. Although, in the grand scheme of things I would say: not too bad a job. One seized screw could have changed everything though!


Ed