Replace 413 head gaskets with engine in place

[class87]

From: 8BallManager  (Original Message)
Sent: 3/13/2006 8:30 PM

It looks like I may be in need of a head gaskets on my '72 D22C, at least judging by all the steam coming out of the tailpipe.  It has the 413 motor.

Does any one have any experience changing heads without removing the engine itself?  Looks like a pretty tight fit.

Thanks in advance for any advice,
Steve

From: Slantsixness
Sent: 3/14/2006 7:54 AM

Steve,

It can be done. the left bank is a Bear, but it's doable, and there is enough room, in a Winnie. I've seen other M-375's (Like Kevin's Futura...) that it might not be as easy. You can always remove the motor mount on one side and pitch the motor up to make it easier, but there is enough room!

You can almost rebuild the entire motor without removing it! (The trans would have to come out to get the crank out, but a re-ring and new rod bearings is easy.... unfortunately, the crank seals is what usually causes leaks!



From: denisondc
Sent: 3/14/2006 10:57 PM

In the process of removing the intake manifold, make sure there wasnt a leak allowing coolant to escape into the intake from either of the heads. I guess thats another way of saying you should do a compression test before removing the heads, and follow it by doing a pressure test of the cooling system - to see if the water is really getting into the engine.
Does anyone know by chance, if there are any core plugs in the 413 block that face into the 'valley' under the chamshaft, or from the heads into the 'valley'?
If you do have to proceed with removing the heads, we all hope you will be able to take photos of the process and of the pieces. It would sure be nice to have a picture of 413 head gaskets when I go to the next antique car flea market - which might be this October at Hersey, Pa.
The rear main seal installation is a royal nuisance if you ask me. It has two linear seals on each side of the aluminum insert that supports the curved seal at the crankshaft itself. It was beyond me to know if I had the two linear seals in properly. I had to drive it to find out. I was lucky.
All you guys with 440s have the same arrangement.



From: 8BallManager
Sent: 3/14/2006 11:14 PM

That sounds like the next step.  I'll do the compression test this weekend.

I was having another thought.  I just put on a new muffler a couple of weekends ago and noticed that the bolts on the rear leg of the exhaust manifolds were loose or missing.  Actually I didn't notice the manifold leak because the hole in the muffler was too loud.  Fixed the muffler and the noise from the manifold led me to the bolts.  I tightened/replaced the bolts and the world got quieter.

Now, on these engines, is there a path from the water jacket through the bolt holes to the manifold?  Could this be my steam source?  Comments greatly appreciated.

On the rear seal note, maybe I should just do it now.  I've removed the entire floor as part of the restoration and the tranny is just sitting there.  Should be easier to remove without the floor.  There are pictures at www.tenementonwheels.com (Sorry, haven't found time to move them back here yet)

Steve



From: Phåråoh Sent: 3/15/2006 8:52 AM

Steve,

When you replace the rear main seal, could you please start another Discussion on that and include your process and any challenges you run into?

 

From: denisondc
Sent: 3/15/2006 10:42 AM

There Might be one or two of the studs whose threaded holes run into the water jacket, but this would not introduce water/steam into the exhaust, I cannot recall. Any leakage from such a location (if any of the stud holes Did extend to the water jacket) would only result in leakage to the outside of the head. It would blow away as you drove. There might be rusty stains at the point of the leak though.
If you do remove the engine head or heads I presume you would rebuild them or have them rebuilt. If so, get the side of the head where the exhaust manifold connects checked for flatness. If its corroded enough to have a low spot, it will recurrently burn through the exhaust manifold gasket in that location. It isnt too difficult to mill a few thousandths off the head at the exhaust ports to correct this. I expect you would be putting in new studs too? I replaced mine with stainless steel bolts. I had to saw off the bolts I got, as the standard ones were either too long or too short. Since I did the work, I check the torque on those studs about each 2 years, and they DO stretch slightly. I used antisieze compound on the threads, but still find they will stiffen up, so sometimes I remove them, one by one, to clean out the threads again with a tap, and recoat the studs with the antisieze compound.
Getting the studs out of the heads the first time, was a slow and tiring chore. With the manifold removed, I soaked the stud where it threaded into the head with penetrating oil, twice a day. I used vise grips on the shank of the studs, and some of them didn’t free up until I had been soaking them and slightly twisting them, twice a day for two weeks. One both sides of the engine I had the wheels off, the axle jacked up, way up, and would sit crouched in the wheel well doing the work. You find other things to do at the same time. Redress the wiring harnesses, replacing the handbrake cable, etc.
You might not need to replace the rear seal, if its not leaking a lot. Anyway, it can be done separately from working on the heads. You only need to have the oil pan off the engine to get to it. If you ever replace the rod bearings or crankshaft bearings, that’s a good time to also replace the rear seals. Similarly, I replaced my front mail seal because I had the radiator out, the water pump off, and it was therefore much easier to reach the timing cover to remove it.
I looked at your pictures - very well done. Your explanation of how the wall is held to the coach structure is one of the best so far.
When I had my valve covers off I repainted them in Dodge Blue, along with the intake manifold, valley cover, etc.

Transmissions are best painted black.



From: 8BallManager
Sent: 3/27/2006 1:12 AM

Upon further examination, it may not be water at all.  The nature of the 'steam' was suspect - it didn't dissipate like steam should, it smelled different than glycol (in fact it appears that there is only straight water in the cooling system) and it was itermittent - sometimes great clouds, other times not.

I now suspect brake fluid entering through the vacuum line.  The cloud only appeared some time after pumping the brakes.  Disconnecting (and plugging) the vacuum line appears to have stopped the problem.

Some background.  I bought the old girl several months ago and have been rebuilding her ever since.  Haven't put more than 50 miles on her - all of this has been occurring in the driveway.  Last weekend, I noticed that the brakes were a little spongy and I topped up the fluid.  It was quite low (I had filled it when I bought the rig) but there were no signs of leaking fluid in the driveway.

Could the boosters be faulty?  And do they fail in such a way that fluid would be accumulating there, and then find it's way to the intake?

As always, any advice is greatly appreciated.

Steve

PS: Should I start a new thread?



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 6/24/2006 8:38 PM

I'm playing "catch-up" and going backwards, so if this is already started in a new thread, then ignore this:

The only way for brake fluid to enter the exhaust manifold is if the diaphram in the brake boosters is bad, and the brake booster cylinders are leaking...if you keep adding fluid, and it keeps disappearing with no signs of leaks (try taking off the drums to make sure and inspect your wheel cylinders), then its your boosters.

So far, the boosters were the only part of my brake system still good on the Ark...lol...so I have no idea where to get them or a rebuild kit...try Geoff at Alretta.

Kev