Brake master cylinder replacement

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: spudboy  (Original Message)
Sent: 7/29/2003 2:02 PM

Whahhh! 

Had to replace my master cylinder since it was leaking at the piston. 

Thanks to CWM, I contacted Jeffrey at Alretta 617-699-4939 and found he has what you need for old Dodge brake systems.  What a fountain of info.

I tried through Napa, Schucks and a couple of salvage places with no luck.  This part is pretty unique and no longer manufactured or rebuilt except by Alretta and Raybestos as near as I can find.  Cost: $358.78 plus shipping.  The Raybestos unit my mechanic found was almost $700 plus freight.  My mechanic ordered two that supposedly fit, but one was way too small, and the other did not match up on bolts.  Time lost: 1 week.



Spudboy,
Be very careful.   Does your unit have a power drum that the master cylinder hooks up to?    My 79 winnie had this setup.   When my master cylinder was leaking at the piston....I replaced the master cylinder.....come to find out it was the power drum that it hooked up to.   I hope your problem is just the master cylinder.   Good luck.
Rick



From: spudboy
Sent: 7/29/2003 6:12 PM

Rick:

Appreciate the concern.  My winnie is the 1972 dinosaur version with two brake boosters down line on the frame.   It definately leaked at the master cylinder because about a cup of brake fluid was in the boot when we took it off.  Also had broken springs on the right front brake drum.



From: spudboy
Sent: 7/31/2003 7:11 PM

Wow! What a difference.  I strongly recommend a brake adjustment, tigten steering box and add a stabilizer.  The Spudmobile makes its inagural weekend run tomorrow!  Full report upon return.



From: theo2
Sent: 8/28/2003 1:55 PM

would you happen to have a picture of the master cylinder? i had that problem with my 76 chieftain, every master was wrong. it was a dodge chassis, no go for a master except for those expensive 3 to 7hundred dollar ones. so i took my old one off and looked at it and i kept thinking man this master looks soooo familiar, then it hit me , it looked like the master on 73 to 78 chevy one ton trucks(ive replaced a few:) so i went to Autozone and had them look up a 76 chevy truck one ton and voila it was a perfect match! 23 dollars and 45minutes later BAMMMM! solid brakes! woohoo. so post a pic  sorry its too late to save you 300 dollars but it may help others.



From: spudboy
Sent: 8/28/2003 3:20 PM

Theo:

Sorry, no photo.  Maybe when I get home tonight.  The unit I have, didn't match any picture in the parts guy's pic-n-match book either.



From: wondermist59
Sent: 3/20/2004 4:39 PM

I happen to have an old Grumman built on an international 1510MHC chassis but it also useses the Bendex Hydrovac booster system and when I neede a new MC I priced one that the book calls for and choked, they I took it apart, checked the specs and we found one that matched everything but the two bolt holes that bolt it to the frame. $34 and a drill to the frame to make it fit. I just bolted up one bolt then redrilled the frame for the second bolt and now I have it ready anytime I need a new one. I can't remember the part number i used but i got it at NAPA.



From: The_Handier_Man
Sent: 6/20/2004 12:48 AM

I just bought a new master cylinder for my '73 Indian. It is for a '76 Chevy 1 ton 2 WD pickup. I bought it for $19.99 at Auto Zone. Fenco part number M1584. There is a picture of it in my pictures at Les & Sophies Indian. Thanks to those who have gone before me in this mission of love???   Les



From: brakeparts
Sent: 6/20/2004 12:11 PM

Les, -

Sadly, you have bought the wrong part.

First, SpudBoy has an all drum brake truck using a medium duty type 1.75 inch bore unit - nothing at all like the front disc brake Indian you have.  You purchased a Chevy hydroBOOST unit and your vehicle is equipped with a hydroVAC system, and the dynamics are wholly different.

Second, although the casting numbers match the internal components don't.  It is likely you will shortly be experiencing symptoms like front brake lock up, which is relieved by bleeding off the calipers, only to repeat itself within a short distance.

Or possibly, you won't get a decent pedal at all, blame the unit as a defect, and try again. Or worse still, someone will lead you to the conclusion that the proportioning valve is bad!!  If the unit does not come with a rod preinstalled at the factory, then it is not the right one and you will have problems.

Please contact me at the warehouse and I will be able to supply the correct part, which is new and comes with rod installed, signaling the correct internal configuration. Remember that swapping the rod does not make the unit a correct replacement: only the correct biasing of pressure to the front and rear brakes will do the job safely!

Yours genially,

Geoff
Alretta Truck Parts Inc.

508-788-9409 weekdays 9-5:30



From: 54PrairieSchooner
Sent: 6/24/2004 1:45 PM

I am a bit confused, although the rod sticking out of the back of Les' old MC was a hint that all might not be well with the Chevy MC. 

I have not crawled around under the chassis of my 72 D20RD M300 Brave, but I have only found (so far) one MC and its associated booster on the outboard side of the driver's side of the front frame rail. 

- Is there only one booster on a M300 and is it a HydroVac (four wheel drum brakes)?

- I found a complete booster/MC reman unit at NapaOnline. In the "Browse Online Catalog" menu, type in 1972, Dodge Truck,  M300 and select "4-wheel drum brakes". The MC, booster and combo show up as avail ranging from $35 to $175 for the whole shebang.   Is this the right part?

I am more than willing to pay exorbitant prices if it available from a single source like Alretta, but I have "other fish to fry" re fiscal resources on this rig and hate to pay $375 if I can get a reman unit.

So what say all of you...will the real MC please stand up?

John G.



From: 54PrairieSchooner
Sent: 6/24/2004 11:23 PM

As a follow up, I spent about 45 minutes on the phone today with Geoff at Alretta Brake parts...in short, a nice guy who is REALLY knowledgable about these old M and RM series chassis and gave me tons of advice and technical help.  I crawled around my 72 D20 M300 on a portable phone and Geoff gave me prices on almost everything I could imagine in the service brake system.  Most of the parts are reasonable ($$)  considering the age and remaining population of the vehicle. I have four wheel drum brakes, so that is a plus for parts avail. However, the bad news is that the front drums are NOT available anywhere as NOS items since Chrysler was the only source for them; I only hope mine are OK..the mileage is the original 45K, so maybe I can milk them for a number of years.  Alretta makes a lot of new stuff, including new master cylinders...for $66, that's not bad considering you get a brand new unit, not remanned.   I had hoped to use the Chevy MC, but it appears that it is vastly different inside in form, fit and function.



From: Discoverer
Sent: 6/25/2004 10:41 AM

WOW ...... I have not bought a MC lately but I would think that for the price of 4 to 7 hundred beans - that you should be able to get a stainless steel sleeved UPgrade and have money left over. All THIS reminds me of the guy who paid a local garage over 400$ to have a timing belt on a 2.2 Dodge motor changed. At a high $$$ Chrysler dealer - the job is less than HALF of that ... !!



From: madluc  (Original Message)
Sent: 6/29/2004 1:44 AM

Hi All,

I just bought a 1979 Brave.  It has the Dodge M300 chasis.  I need to have the master Cylinder replaced.  The one I could find was made by cardone part #1011583 and wagner part# for same master cylinder R84058. does any of these parts numbers sound familiar?
  Also what is the difference between CB300 and the M300?


Any help at all would be welcome.

Thank you
MADLUC.



From: brakeparts
Sent: 6/29/2004 11:07 AM

MadLuc,

I would be happy to help you, but you need to marshall some info about the chassis, so please contact me off-line and we can discuss this fully.

Regards,

Geoff
Alretta Truck Parts Inc.
brakeparts@mac.com
508-788-9409



From: olivereaman
Sent: 7/20/2004 6:00 PM

spudboy, I found a master cylinder at ADVANCE AUTO. The price was around $25.00. with a $10.00 core charge. They also have the boosters for around $135.00, if my memory serves me correctly.

Those parts are still readily available. DON'T BE HELD UP FOR A KING'S RANSOME.

Also, don't be afraid to rebuild one.



From: 54PrairieSchooner
Sent: 7/22/2004 6:04 PM

All right..I know I sound like a heretic here...but I would rather pay the king's ransom and get the correct part.  My Brave (72 D20) weighs a whole bunch and with brakes, I'd rather have correct, dependable parts rather than take the cheaper route and run the risk of brake lock-up or an accident. My past experience with Advance Auto, etc. with rebuilt units is that you get what you pay for....I love a deal and would LOVE to find a $25 MC, but a lot of these units are generic and may or may not work on our applications....if it were a carb or something like that, I'd be willing to take more of a risk.

I'm not getting any benefits to say this, but I received my MC from Alretta today..$67.00, but it is brand new in the Mopar box, with instructions and already set up for power brakes...ready to bolt on with handwritten instructions where necessary to ensure I have a smooth installation.  I paid for it two days ago and it was waiting for me when I got home this afternoon..as promised by Geoff. 

Of course, I could rebuild mine and if it failed, only blame myself...but my time is worth $$$ and I'll pay the extra $30 and change to get the correct, new part the first time.  With regular bleeding each year, my MC should last as long as the last one did..many years.

OK, off my soapbox...standing by for all of you to shoot the crazy guy (me).



From: Discoverer
Sent: 7/24/2004 3:05 AM

WW ....King's Ransom ??..... 67 beans ??  LOL ...... now 4 or 7 hundred is more like THAT - and there is NO reason to pay that kind of $$$$$. HELL - you could get a total one-off stainless-steel sleeved unit for about 3 hun or so.



From: Weavebago
Sent: 8/14/2006 10:16 AM

Can enyone tell me the part # for my master cylinder? I looked in the manual that I got on the comp from lefty but didnt see it. maybe someone with a hard copy of the parts manual can look it up for me. its a 1973 m375 the people at napa say they can get it if i get the part # thanks, - Bob



From: denisondc
Sent: 8/14/2006 1:32 PM

If its the original master cylinder, it should have a casting number on the side. This can be used by someone with the Bendix cross-over books to find the correct part number for your M375. Or, you can just call Mr. Rosenberg at www.alretta.com to get the proper part. Last time I checked, the master cyl. for the M375 was one of the more expensive.



From: Weavebago
Sent: 8/14/2006 6:23 PM

the thing is rusty and I casnt see any # on it and dont want to take it off before I get the new one unless I absolutely have to. isnt the part # in the parts manual? I thought that would be the easiest way.



From: denisondc
Sent: 8/14/2006 7:11 PM

Well: the parts catalog is a good source for most parts, but has some confusing elements. For instance, it doesnt list the voltage regulator, but does list each and every part in the tranny - though you buy a -kit- to fix a tranny, not individual parts.
Anyway, the parts catalog I have says it covers the M300, M375, RM-300, RM-350 and RM-400 models, from 69 through 1974.
It lists 6 master cylinder part numbers, with no further description than what I give here: 2953380 for M3 up to ser # 1S351952. 3549832 for ser # higher than 1S351952. 2914462 for M4 up to ser #1S352788, and 3491977 for ser # higher than1S352788. Then it lists 3491500 for the R3 chassis, and 3640282 for the R4 and R5 chassis.
The front pages of the catalog indicates the RM300 is an R3, the RM350 was an R4, and the RM400 is an R5. But this doesnt help you much, since I believe the RM chassis series were produced begining during calendar year 1973 and into calendar year 1974. This usually meant they had motorhomes built on them that would be 1974 and 1975 'model' years.
From the same page I infer that the M375 is an M4 in the listings, but its not explicit.
To make matters harder, these are the numbers that were current 30 years ago. My limited experience is that many of those old numbers have been superceded, by newer mopar 7 digit numbers. Then you still need to cross the mopar number over to the Bendix OEM number.
This isnt impossible to do, but considering that our old motorhomes represent such a tiny percentage of the business at NAPA or any other franchise parts place, dont be discouraged if they dont have the listings to get you the proper part.
I corresponded with a gent who owned a NAPA franchise store in W.Va, and who was trying to get wheel cylinders for his 72 M375 (M400?). On his 4th try he got the correct parts, based on the Bendix casting number. The old mopar numbers didnt lead to any current part.



From: denisondc
Sent: 8/14/2006 7:13 PM

And on my Winnebago, the casting number on the master cylinder was on the side facing the engine, under the rust.



From: brakeparts
Sent: 8/15/2006 6:25 AM

Do not pass GO! Do not collect $200!

You can not purchase the correct part from any commercial outlet today, unless you have a time machine and can dial in about the year 1990!

What you can get, though, is a very bad case of the "I thought I could do this on my own". The master cylinder casting will lead to a unit made for a totally different truck chassis which uses twin front wheel cylinders per wheel, that require a larger fluid displacement to actuate and if you persist in finding this unit, you would possibly notice that the push rod and attachment of rod is different and that the line ports are incorrect as well. But foolishly, you might try to persist - in which case, if you gave away your old core, you would be LOST FOREVER!!!!!!

You must retain the old units push rod and thrust washer to reuse in the unit I would supply - this is non-negotiable (I do not have thes e items). You would not be able to simply transfer them into someone elses supplied part as this will not have the correct guts to bias pressure to your M375 front brakes correctly, so if you want to experiment with your safety and welfare, and that of the other motorists nearby, go ahead and try to find some auto parts stores analog. Its not my life that will be at risk here.

If you want the correct part (minus the reserved items mentioned above), I have this in stock for $358.74 new. I will be happy to discuss this with you at length over the phone.

Regards to all,

Geoff Rosenberg
(aka Mr. Rosenberg - How formal!)
Alretta Truck Parts Inc.
508-788-9409 weekdays

PS: Do not have the temerity to ask me for a part number. Quite simply, a part number does not mount onto your chassis, a part does!



From: denisondc
Sent: 8/15/2006 10:26 AM

Which explains why the old mopar numbers dont lead anywhere anymore......... But thanks to Geoff, now I know what to look for when I go into a boneyard having an M375 or M400 chassis in it; original master cylinders to harvest!

I replaced the m.c. on my Winny in 1994 when it began to leak. The replacement cost me about $275 then, which I was happy to pay. The only m.c. I could find when I bought the Winny in 1991 was in a Dodge truck dealership in Alabama, for $450, and the local Bendix distributor didnt have any listing for it in his books, neither new, rebuilt, or a kit. I asked again every year after that, mostly in places that specialized in older Light Truck chassis parts. Only found it in 94, the same year it began to leak.
The replacement m.c. worked fine, but it wasnt -exactly- like the unit it replaced. The one on my Winny had the Bendix casting #, and had different sized threads for the flare nuts on the line ports, even though both brake lines were 3/16th bundy tubing. The replacement said Wagner Lockheed on its rubber parts, had no casting number, and both line ports were the same size - for 3/16th brake line. I had to put in an adapter to able to connect to the original brake line.



From: Weavebago
Sent: 8/15/2006 10:47 AM

A bid thanks to Mr.Rosenberg! He set me straight that the Weavebago is NOT a 375 rather a 350 so the parts are there including the rotors that we looked for when we bought her! now I'm off to figure out how to get the $ to do the whole system front to back.



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 8/15/2006 11:18 AM

I installed one of Geoff's Master Cylinders on Kev's Futura on a very cold December day. All I can say is, Geoff's MC Works Right, and when folloeing his instructions on the spacer, very simple to swap the spacer out. there's even pictures of Kev's (and my) ordeal to get the Futura to stop! (I mean... really.... Kev & I drove it 45 miles back to my house with no brakes at all!)

I spent upwards of $1000 on my brakes, which are very different (M300 on a D20), and converted to front discs... but All in all, Geoff Provided me with reasonably priced excellent quality parts, that I can't get anywhere else with any surety. (besides my local parts guy calls Geoff too!)

Look at Tatkin's brake fiasco last 2 months here... and probably even Poor Timmy's Rear end story from Last year....

These parts aren't totally obsolete, but if you don't get the parts from Geoff, or someone at least knowledgeable about these parts (who probably will call Geoff!) then you could be taking your safety and security into your own hands.
Just because a part looks the same, doesn't mean it fits. Just because it fits, doesn't mean it works. Just because you think your saving money, doesn't mean you are getting value for your money.

If you happen to have a mechanical engineering degree and have worked on or designed Hydraulic brake systems for Dodge motorhomes and heavy trucks for at least 30 years, I apologize, but you would already know all this.

The M300,RM350, M375, M400, M500, D600, D700, D800 and D900 (I'm leaving the DR series and Big Horn trucks out of this..but they're just more expensive!) Chassis all have excellent braking systems, however, they are unique and share little in common with passenger Vans and trucks, except maybe the prop valve and the brake lines...

If you can't stop your motorhome, you could hurt yourself, your family, or maybe even somebody else's family, like mine.... fix it right. Don't sweat the price... how much would it cost to replace your family?

Tom



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 8/15/2006 11:29 AM

Bob,
I remember when I saw Weavebago that it was 8 Lug, making it an RM350 chassis, just like Sob's. Your brake job just got a whole lot cheaper! (If that helps much!)

Tom



From: Weavebago
Sent: 8/15/2006 12:05 PM

Yea right now the only thing that I know needs attention is the master cylinder but the back wheels havent even been off yet(my mechanic didnt want to pull them unless we had the parts first)so I know the right way to go will be to do the whole thing. Tom,did you do everything yourself? I will probably take it to my mechanic(he did TJ's brakes when they were here)he has no problem if I want to bring the parts with me since he knows how hard they are to match. Real glad it isnt a 375!



From: tatkin
Sent: 8/15/2006 6:23 PM

The real message you should be hearing here is that if you don't buy from this Geoff person you are going to die because of brake failure...   

I have had multiple people from this site send me emails on the side saying they did not use Alretta and have been having a great time without failure.

But they also seemed to have proficient mechanics .

Carefull .

The big message here , really , is stay back, from the traffic that is, perfect brakes or not  ...



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 8/15/2006 8:29 PM

Ok... here's the qualification:

"But they also seemed to have proficient mechanics " -tatkin

Geoff isn't the only person in the world for these old brakes. There are other suppliers, and they could indeed be competent and supply the right parts. But I would put my foot down here and say that Geoff is the best there is. And his prices are very fair.
I paid LESS for my rotors (just 2 of many parts....) from Geoff than I would have paid from various local suppliers (yes they are still available), and that was including shipping, which was 2 whole days (I'm in VA, so MA is only about a 2 day regular shipment anyway). In another case, NAPA said they could get the Wheel cylinders for $65 apiece. I bought both wheel cylinders from Geoff for under $50.(again I'm on a M300 chassis modified with RM350 front disc brakes...so yes I have rotors and only 2 wheel cylinders on a '72)

Kevin's Master cylinder Cost a bundle, for an M375... but it WAS THE RIGHT PART. We tried to get it locally due to time constraints. Ask Kev. My NAPA guy knows me by name, and tries everything. HE said... Call Geoff.
Think about it.

Enough of the BS. If you think I am implying that "If you "butcher" your brakes with substandard or incorrect parts and inadequate knowledge of the parts, and these brake systems.... YOU COULD INJURE YOUR SELF OR FAMILY OR DIE, or YOU COULD INJURE OR KILL ME OR MY FAMILY."
Niether one of us wants that, I think... certainly I don't!

And yes, Tatkin's right. These don't stop like a car. Drive sensibly. Drive Safe. Arrive with you and your Motohome in one piece. That's the rule.

Careful out there Folks.

Tom



From: Slantsixness
Sent: 8/15/2006 8:35 PM

Oh yeah...
Bob,
I did it all myself.



From: denisondc
Sent: 8/16/2006 3:52 AM

If anyone wants to see how these RVs can Really stop, do a test. On a side road or an industrial street (when the businesses are closed) going at least 35 or 40 mph, jam your brake pedal down; as hard as you can! Try to get the pedal to the floor. Thats what you would do in an emergency stop.
This will take 'Preparation Time', as you will want to remove or wrap-up all plates, glasses, pots, pans, cutlery, loose items, etc. I would recommend having the fridge, empty and the holding tanks nearly empty. You can expect substantial re-arranginge afterward anyway. This is when we seriously clean out the items from inside the motorhome.
Damage may occur too. If anything splinters, snaps off, or comes adrift - it would have done that in any emergency stop, and now you can fix it in your driveway, instead of during a vacation.
I do this test each time I complete major brake work. The rear upper bunk ripped partly free of one wall the last time, probably due to interior wall deterioration. So we cant put much weight up there anymore, and I know I will have wall repair to do along with a new roof in a year or so.
And unless the wheels lock up on one side, it should stop in a straight line.



From: brakeparts
Sent: 8/16/2006 6:05 AM

Tatkin and all -

Histrionics and hysteria aside, ATP has several things going for it as the supplier to choose.

Number one, I am a true warehouse distributor, higher up the food chain that any retail store one can walk into. I buy all products direct from the manufacturer and sell for less, by choice and by position in the distribution channel. I believe that on balance I will be able to provide the correct parts for less each and every time, for any vehicle that is in the driveway with hydraulic brakes. A 1930 Auburn or a 2005 Ford F550 Super Duty covers some of the range we sell.

Number two, I have an excellent reputation for shipping correctly, diagnosing carefully, and selling with reserve. These are important attributes to ask for from any sales organization, sadly, not available in many quarters today. I will help a client weigh the issues with all my 25 years experience to bear.

Number three, not all these motorhomes are difficult to provide parts for, if a Class C chassis, but the Class A is a challenge for most any counter person. Traditional cataloging is lacking in details. I fill in all these gaps with surety.

So other than the elevation of Geoffrey to iconic status amongst motorhome parts buyers (Oh, Pleeze!), what is the issue with helping the apparently best source for brake parts for Dodge chassis to stay in business, on track, and capable of handling future parts needs for the wide arena of motorhome owners?

I mean, if you decide not to support ATP when the need arises, then ultimately you are turning your back on the community, because the community is receiving extensive support from ATP.

Keeping ATP healthy is in every Dodge motorhome owners best interests, but don't expect the "other guy" to do this for you. You, whoever you maybe out there, need to be responsible. It's kind'a like the issue of voting for a better America, a better society...wouldn't you say?

Not every member of CWM cares to sweat the details of the repair of their brakes. Many will want it to go right from the start! For novice or advanced owners alike, I believe we offer a best source to purchase the necessary brake parts. I hope that I have not lead anyone to think otherwise..

Regards, and Thank you to all, clients and future clients alike,

Geoff
Alretta Truck Parts Inc.