Tune up results, wheel cylinders, brake parts

[The_Handier_Man1]

From: ClydesdaleKevin  (Original Message)
Sent: 12/29/2005 7:34 PM

Well, I tuned up the Ark today.  I put in all new spark plugs, gapped to .035.  I was going to put in a new set of points, but the old points were in perfect condition, they were Blue Streaks, which are the best, there wasn't even a hint of corrosion or pitting on the points, and they were already aligned and gapped to a perfect .018!!!

A timing light showed the marks (at least I hope they were the right marks...lol) perfectly aligned at idle, and the idle was factory perfect.

I ran into a couple of gliches though:

First, I noticed that one of the spark plug wires, the second from the rearmost on the driver's side, was burned all the way through!  It had fallen out of its loom, obviously a very long time ago by how much the wire jacket had deteriorated, and was resting on the exhaust manifold!  I was able to cut the wire off, since I had some slack to it.  I stripped the new end just like the old end was stripped, and was able to reuse the metal connector and crimp it down just like new.  I was also able to reuse the boot, so alls well that ends well!  I started up the rig, and it was amazing!  Not even the slightest hint of a skip, and when it warmed up and I reved it up, it had POWER!!!  It must have been like this the whole time!  Who would have thought that I wouldn't have noticed one of the cylinders not even firing?  No wonder I didn't have any power on the hills!  The spark plug that came from that cylinder was also a different color that the other plugs, more of a dull yellow than a nice grey.  I'm guessing it hasn't been firing this whole time!  I posted a pic of the wire in the "Ark Goes to Drydock" album.

Second glitch:  When I installed the new carberator, I didn't bother adjusting the linkage that goes from the carb to the transmission.  Since I had to change the angle of the cable mount, etc., I didn't realize that the position of the new carb's linkage rod is farther to the front than the old one.  This linkage is what makes the tranny downshift when stepping on it and going up hills.  I noticed that when I drove with the new carb, I had to manually downshift more often then not.  So, while going through the tune up process in the service manual, I came accross the section to adjust the linkage.  Really simple actually:  The back of the slot on the adjustment linkage is just supposed to touch, with no forward pressure, the linkage arm that comes out of the side of the carburator.  So, a quick adjustment, and I should be downshifting automatically again...I can't take it for a test drive yet until I fix the back brakes, and also for the third and final glitch:

Third glitch:  The throttle cable snapped on me!  Right near the pedal, under the rubber boot.  Now, I just replaced this cable in June, and it was 47 bucks!  I bought it at Napa, and while I saved the tag off the box with the part number, I lost the reciept.  I called the local Cartersville, GA Napa, and they can get me the cable, which has a 1 year warrantee, in a few days.  They said it wouldn't cost me anything if I had the reciept, which I don't have!  So, I called the Napa I bought it from, in Elizabeth City, NC, and they found on thier computer that yes, I had purchased the cable from them on June 13th.  So, as long as I have the GA Napa call the NC Napa, and as long as they are cool, I should still be able to get the cable for free.  If not?  Another 47 bucks down the drain!

Well, that's it for now!  The Ark is running better than ever, and the transmission fluid is still a pretty red color, and I haven't lost a drop in 10,000 miles.  We are still immobile with no throttle cable and one bad wheel cylinder in the back, but progress is being made, and we should be back on the road right on schedule!

Kev



From: denison
Sent: 12/30/2005 8:27 AM

Arent all 4 of your rear wheel cylinders equally old, and if one is bad, wouldnt they all need replacement? They all had the same 'heat treatment' from the dragging brakes.
I opened up my rear brakes 6 or 7 years after I had replaced the wheel cylinders, to inspect them. I cleaned out the muck, buffed the bore, and put in the new rubber cups and dust seals. And I cleaned and relubed the threads on the self-adjusters.
I opened them up for inspection again in 2004, but only cleaned them again. I have been putting off replacing those wheel cylinders for almost 2 years now. I figure 15 years on a set of wheel cylinders is stretching my luck.



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 12/30/2005 11:23 AM

Hey Dave,

Its just not in the budget right now.  From what I gathered from Geoff at Alretta, the rear wheel cylinders are a hundred bucks a peice!  That would be 400 bucks, plus the cost of the 4 new shoes, and if any springs and hardware need replacing, I'd be looking at another 600 bucks...which I simply can't afford at this time.  I can afford a couple of hundred bucks, but not 600...lol.  So, for now, I'm going to pull the drums, clean them all up, replace the bad wheel cylinder, replace the shoes on both sides, and replace any broken hardware, but try to reuse what I can.  As it is, I also have to replace a couple of brake lines that look pretty crusty so I won't have any issues with them.  It never ends, eh?

Kev



From: denison
Sent: 12/30/2005 1:34 PM

Also being a retired guy, I know about the budget$.

The rebuild kits (rubber cups, dust seals,) were about $8 apiece the last time I bought some; a set of 4.



From: DampDude007
Sent: 12/30/2005 2:06 PM

Yea,just get you a honer for about 10 buck and rebuild the cylinders,it is very easy,the ones you buy are usually remans anyway,$100 a pop is a little steep.
Dude



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 12/30/2005 6:07 PM

Hey Dave and Dude,

Any idea where I can get the rebuild kit, ie. the cups and dust seals?  Do I need a honer?  What size, and does it just fit on the drill?  How successful are rebuilds?  I mean, if I do it right, it won't leak, will it?

Thanks!

Kev



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 12/30/2005 8:01 PM

Hey Dave!

Another question for you.  A while ago, you emailed me directions (I'm pretty sure it was you...lol) on how to remove the rear axles and service the brakes.  Do you still have that letter?

Also, do I need to replace any grease seals, axle seals?  If you have the instructions still, please email them to me again, since I lost all my old emails when I reloaded my system. 

Thanks!

Kev



From: denison
Sent: 12/30/2005 11:00 PM

Based on how hot your drums and hubs got when you had the brakes dragging, I would try to get the new grease seals. If you carefully remove the old ones, there should be a tiny 4 to 9 digit number on them that will get you the proper replacements - or get them from alretta.com. I have the original text of the advice on getting the rear brakes apart, and will email it to you tomorrow some time.
A key point is that you must repack the rear wheel bearings with grease when you reassemble. Until the differential fluid oozes its way out along the axle to begin lubing the bearings, the grease you pack in there is what keeps them safe.



From: DampDude007
Sent: 12/31/2005 6:41 AM

Kev,
You should be able to get the rebuild kits just about anywhere,they are kinda standard ,the honer fits in a regular drill,the main thing when honing it to check the cylinder for rust pits,if it is real bad you will need to replace,but you also do not want to over hone it either,just enough to rough it up a little,you can over do it and it will not seal up. But I have rebuilt several brake cylinders,no failures,just take your time and save some cash. there are only a few rubber pieces to remove and replace.
Good Luck.
Dude



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 12/31/2005 11:01 AM

Thanks guys!

Kev



From: brakeparts
Sent: 12/31/2005 9:50 PM

Kevin -

The set of four new wheel cylinders for your specific truck is $256.40. The hub seals are $16+- each and the rear brake shoes need to be custom relined if damaged, because no one makes a commercial rebuilt set today. I make the rear return springs, which are sold as a complete set of 8 for $115.40. I show pictures of these parts at my website, www.alretta.com.

Call me on Tuesday or email me for any specific details beyond this. I do not offer wheel cylinder kits for these cylinders as this is really not a good move - any leaking brings you back to where you started from and commercially speaking that's not a good way to operate a repair business... or to spend your hard-won personal time, repairing the same damages over again! Why run those risks?

Happy New Year all - safe driving!

Geoff
Alretta Truck Parts Inc.
508-788-9409



From: ClydesdaleKevin
Sent: 1/2/2006 11:24 AM

Hey Geoff,

Do you guys reline the rear shoes at your shop, and if not, is there someone that you recommend to do the job in a reasonable amount of time, and somewhat affordably?

Also, on your website you make a distiction between 1972 and later wheel cylinders, and 1971 and earlier wheel cylinders.  My coach is a 72, and the chassis is a late 71.  Are there any visual clues I can look for to determine which wheel cylinders mine has, to make sure I order the right ones?

Last question:  If I simply can't find a local source for custom brake shoe relining, is there a way to clean the old brake fluid out of a saturated shoe if the shoe itself otherwise looks servicable?

Thanks!

Kev



From: denison
Sent: 1/2/2006 5:30 PM

Kevin; as to what wheel cylinders your 71 chassis would take: Measure the inner diameter of your rear brake drums. I believe they would be 14.12 x 3", not 12" x 3".
I agree with Goeff about wheel cylinder rebuild kits. About 6 years after I had replaced my 4 rear wheel cylinders I removed the drums again for a general inspection/cleaning. At that time I cleaned out the wheel cylinders - which were not leaking -, and put in the new rubber cups/seals, since the old ones showed some signs of wear. I buffed very minor rust out of the wheel cylinder bores too. If you don’t mind spending the time to remove and replace the drums, (which I don’t mind each few years), I figure the rebuild kits can extend the life of a wheel cylinder. If its already leaking however, I would only want to use a rebuild kit to get back to a friendly driveway where I could order, obtain, and install new wheel cylinders. If that is the alretta price for 4 wheel cylinders, it is a bargain.
I cleaned my rear brakes shoes; they were coated in brake fluid. I soaked them for a couple of hours in a solution of sodium hydroxide (a.k.a. lye) and butyl-celusolve right out of the gallon bottle. I think that is the name. Anyway, it’s the concentrated deck cleaner with 'butyl' in the ingredients that Home Depot sells. Look in their tool rental center, or next to the high-pressure washers. The same liquid is a good engine degreaser, but avoid using it on aluminum. I scrubbed the shoe surface with a wire brush from time to time during the soaking. They came out looking clean, the glaze gone. And best of all, they have worked fine for the 50,000 miles since. I was prepared to take them off and get them relined if I had squeaks or grabbing, but it turned out not to be necessary.
Your brake shoes however were heated much hotter than mine seemed to have been; so use your own judgement. I have always been fortunate enough to be working on the motorhome in my driveway, with no particular deadline for setting out for the next long drive! For general safety and peace of mine I got my front shoes relined - they were also glazed with roasted brake fluid. I asked at a truck parts place (who only carried air brake parts) where to get mine relined. The referral outfit did them overnight, the cost was reasonable.
If you go to this site: http://groups.msn.com/michigandonstravco -- On his picture album called "repower project" he has a picture called "newrearbrakes" that shows the same kind of rear brakes my M400 has. My chassis was made in April of 72. The wheel cylinders on mine have the casting number 301169 on them. This casting number crosses to several different applications, and therefore different part numbers, but I think only one of them uses 4 wheel cylinders on the rear axle. And I think there is a left and a right to the wheel cylinders. On one side of your rear axle would be a 'left' and a 'right' I believe, and I don’t think they interchange, at least not if you don’t have a machine shop. In the picture the bottom one seems like it would be the same as the top one just inverted; but I recall the bleed screw and brake line fitting were distinct. Certainly there are two part numbers in the Dodge motor home chassis parts catalog for the 14.12" x 3" brake wheel cyls: 3633312 and 3633311.
While you are the michigandon MSN site, have a good look at the hydrovac booster pictures. Yours are only slightly younger than you are!