Using hydrogen generator to increase gas mileage

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Hey Bill,

The reason for using distilled water as opposed to salt water or just tap water is to prevent calcification of the plates...the more calcified they get the less gas they produce.  Also, salt is extremely corrosive to all components, and even though in theory all salt should be left behind, small trace amounts can be sucked up by your engine and then corrode the internal components.  An example of this is cars along a coastline.  The salt in the air, which shouldn't be there but is, rusts out a coastal car much faster than an inland car. 

Potassium hydroxide is added because its the least corrosive electrolite that is inexpensively and readily available, and calcifies the least on the plates.

I found that expensive system by following the link to systems that someone added in an earlier post and found that nothing was listed for a 454 big block, but that I could contact the company with custom requests.  That is the price they quoted me when they wrote me back a few days later.

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Here is an exerpt that that company sent me when I inquired about thier systems:

"Hi Kevin, Hi Patti,

Yes, that IS refreshing to have an earlier model motorhome to work with.

We have a couple of units that work well with your engine size.

This link below is one of our fancier systems.
http://www.advancedhho.com/product-p/es80sys.htm

Check it out and we can discuss several approaches to best fit your needs.

Warm Regards,
Rich Prescott
www.AdvancedHHO.com"

Kev

[Froggy1936]

I built and installed, operated and increased MPG from 9.5 MPG to 12 MPG But i have since removed the complete syestem. (its for sale) Due to corrosion of internal engine parts and exaust syestem. UNLESS all are stainless steel ,Valves are highly susceptible, and when you drop the head of an intake or exaust valve major headache ,and expense. Way more than any savings in fuel unless you can attain 100 MPG or more, expect a repair bill of 5 to 10 K for an engine and exaust syestem.   Look it up  Frank

[Oz]

Ouch!  That is expensive. I guess you'd have to install stainless steel valves and exhaust first.  That would be quite pricey.  Very good info to share!  Thanks, Frank!

[GulfCoastFighter0]

I built and installed, operated and increased MPG from 9.5 MPG to 12 MPG But i have since removed the complete syestem. (its for sale) Due to corrosion of internal engine parts and exaust syestem. UNLESS all are stainless steel ,Valves are highly susceptible, and when you drop the head of an intake or exaust valve major headache ,and expense. Way more than any savings in fuel unless you can attain 100 MPG or more, expect a repair bill of 5 to 10 K for an engine and exaust syestem.   Look it up  Frank

This is why the more expensive kits that are coming out have a "moisture" filter.  There really should not be any water going into the engine, just the Hydrogen produced but there is no way to accomplish this without a separator.  Farmers were doing this for years before it was accepted in the auto industry, but there was no way to judge the savings or power (their goals) of their huge systems.

[ibdilbert01]

"This is why the more expensive kits that are coming out have a "moisture" filter"

A moisture filter will not work at all.   The process is kinda stupidly simple once explained.   When sticking a set of probes into water and applying electricity, the probes will bubble and produce hydrogen and oxygen.  The + probes bubbles will be pure oxygen, and the bubbles on the - probe will be hydrogen.  You'll get twice as much hydrogen than oxygen.  This is because H20 is, two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.   If you collect both of these gasses in the same container you make whats called "browns gas".   Browns gas is HHO, or oxyhydrogen.  The indirect product left after the combustion of browns gas is water vapor, that is what causes havoc on the engines.

Why these kits are not called Oxyhydrogen generators is beyond me.

[wizardbill]

As for water collection in the engine, that is why you have to use a bubbler.  If you go directly from the generator, you will most definitely get water into the engine.  I am installing a bubbler (or possibly two, if I get the valves to accurately detect the gas creation amount).  This will keep the water from getting into the engine.

[ibdilbert01]

Maybe I'm missing something.  How does the bubbler prevent water vapor after the browns gas ignites?

*Edit Added Content Below*

Doing some research I understand the function of the bubbler.    It prevents a backfire from entering the generator and potentially detonating the browns gas being created. 

BUT...  I also found a few other sites that said it serves as a second function.  One site said it scrubs the browns gas and removes any stray electrolytes.   (That instantly makes me think...  "It has what plants crave… electrolytes!") 

On another site that sells parts to make an HHO Generator says "It cleans the water vapor from your generator so that the vapors do not enter your engine. If the water vapors enter your engine it can potentially cause damage to your engine." Sigh, at least they call it what it is, an "HHO" Generator...

Obviously this site doesn't understand what they are selling.  Browns Gas does not contain water vapor until after it ignites, then it creates water vapor, at that point its too late and is exiting through your valves and out your exhaust.    Now I suppose its very possible to pick up some water vapor on a poorly created generator and pass it through your intake, but this amount would be minor compared to what will be created after the browns gas ignites.  Also despite what these sites are saying, these so called bubblers wouldn't remove this vapor or remove electrolytes.   Maybe one should separate the oxygen and the hydrogen and just pass the hydrogen into the intake, this would prevent the byproduct of water vapor after the detonation. Of course this would also decrease the total volume of gas being generated by 1/3. 

Some quick facts. (based on a perfect world)

• It takes about 11 amps at 12 volts to create 1 liter of HHO per minute
• 11amps at 12 volts requires about 1/5 Horse Power
• 1 liter of Browns Gas contains about ~1.5 BTU of heat energy.
• 1 liter of regular gas contains about ~30,343 BTU of heat energy.

Now, on the other hand, I'm anxious to see someone actually make this thing work.    I believe American Ingenuity is still alive and well.  If someone believes the HHO Generator will work, by all means keep trying and experimenting till you get it right.  If anything, it might lead to another discovery that might change the world.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Dilbert is completely correct about HHO gas converting back to water once ignited.  Not ALL of it converts to water...thus the release of energy...but no fuel is 100% efficient, and the unignited hydrogen and oxygen converts back to water at the point of ignition of the rest of the mixture.  Hydrogen and oxygen are phyllic, I forget the exact chemisty phrase, and they WANT to be joined together.  Do this experiment...Take a glass bowl and fill it with water and an electrolite.  Now take a beaker that is fitted with an airtight lid and remove the lid.  Submerse the beaker in the bowl of water (the bowl has to be deeper than the beaker is tall) and flip the beaker over so that it is filled with water with the opening facing down.  Lift it almost all the way out of the bowl so that it creates its own vacumm to keep it filled with water.  Place two electrodes in the bowl under the beaker, apply voltage (keep it at 12 volts DC so you don't electrocute yourself...lol), and let the beaker fill completely with HHO gas so that it is bubbling up from under the rim.  Lower the beaker back into the bowl without letting the gas escape and then reinstall the airtight cap.  Remove the beaker from the bowl...it will now be filled with HHO gas.  There will be some water droplets from the lid and the wet nature of the experiment.  Mark down how many and how much water is in the bottom of the beaker.  Set it on a shelf.  Come back in a few days...there will be a significant amount MORE water in the beaker...because even without a catalyst, hydrogen and oxygen will bond back together into water.  Now add a catalyst like combustion or extreme heat, and it happens instantaneously!  If you don't believe that, then at your own risk you can repeat the experiment, but this time use a steel beaker and safety equiptment like gloves and a face shield, and then instead of putting the beaker on the shelf, take it outside to an open field and light a match...hold the preferable LONG match over the container and with a leather-gloved hand remove the lid and let the mixture ignite...WHOOSH!  It won't explode per se because the opening to the beaker will be large enough for the flash to escape without exploding the beaker...but it WILL scare the heck out of you even with safety equiptment...lol!  Its pretty dramatic.  You'll notice if you didn't blink that a cloud of vapor puffs up with the ignition.  Now look in the beaker...there will now be a noticable amount, like a few milliliters, of water in the bottom of the beaker and dripping down the sides...where did it come from?  The ignition of the HHO mixture.

Going back to what Dilbert said, that water vapor now goes through your engine as steam, which condenses and converts back to water, contaminating your oil, and reacting with the steel and iron components of your engine and exhaust.  Could it work with non-corrosive components like an aluminum block, stainless steel rods, bearings, crank, pistons, valves, springs, exhaust, etc.?  Sure!  But does the gain in MPG pay off the expense of a marine application engine?  Not in a million miles!  Add to that a constant change of oil or a separator added in the oil channels to keep the oil and water separated...or else your oil viscosity will change to the consistency of melted coffee icecream and you'll ruin even your stainless steel bearings and moving parts.

Seems to me a non-workable system for the long term unless a HECK of a lot of money is spent on the engine and the whole design in general, and then the system would never even come close to paying for itself.

But that gives me a thought...what if you could isolate ONE of the gases, or one at a time, and ignite them separately?  TWO separate collectors from the water/electrolyte chamber.  You could either expel one of the gases out of the engine compartment into the air...expelling the oxygen and burning the hydrogen would be by far the safest choice since oxygen itself isn't explosive, it just makes other gases more explosive...or you could come up with a valving system that first burns the oxygen, then the hydrogen, then the oxygen, then the hydrogen, etc., a rapidly moving valving system that keeps large amounts of the gas from ever accumulating somehow tied into the timing system of the engine...doable but extremely complicated...hmmmmmmmmm...something to think about.  And would separately burning the gases amount to the same gain in MPG as straight HHO?  Again...hmmmmmmmmmm...things to ponder.  If I was independently wealthy and could play with stuff like this I'd be the first one onboard.

Kev

[Froggy1936]

Thats What i said (short version). Also i did not mention blown Alternator belt Then Alternator then battery These syestems need a lot of amps  P.S. I had a bubbler. Frank

[wizardbill]

Kevin,

..."what if you could isolate ONE of the gases, or one at a time, and ignite them separately?  TWO separate collectors from the water/electrolyte chamber"...

This is exactly what is done.  This is why there are two sets of hoses in the top of each jar.  One above the positive terminal, and one above the negative terminal.  One collects the O2 and the other collects the H2.  The H2 is then fed into the carburetor, while the O2 is fed into the air.  I am pretty sure that O2 sprayed out into the atmosphere.  As for the current, I am only using 2.0 amps but I am sending the charge to 8 different collection points.  This way, I am able to convert enough gas to make a difference.  I am  not sure how much of a difference it will make, but I for one, am going to be videoing every step, as well as testing the mileage before the apparatus is turned on, and the miles recorded, then, doing the same thing with the generator turned on to test the difference.

I am merely stating what I am doing.  I do not claim that it is going to make a large difference, but the numbers will tell us.  I can always hope for the best, and we (the family) are going to be driving about 30k miles this coming year, so, even a ten percent gain is HUGE.

[ClydesdaleKevin]

If you are feeding straight hydrogen into the fuel mixture then I don't see it damaging the engine via water.  But every commercial system I've seen, and every kit and plan I've looked at, feeds both gases into the intake.  Thus the reason they are called HHO generators, or "brown gas"...meaning separated water into two gases being fed into the intake.

And looking more at the chemistry behind it all, feeding straight hydrogen into the mixture will only add a few more BTUs to the ignitable mixture.  Proponents of the system write that the addition of the oxygen is what makes your gasoline burn more efficiently and reduces the emissions.

Kev

[ClydesdaleKevin]

Let us know how it works out, Robert!  The only way I can see it being workable without severely damaging your engine components with water vapor would be to expel the oxygen, and only use the hydrogen.  And even then, small amounts of water vapor will form since the ambient air coming into the intake also contains oxygen, although it should be minimal, since most of that oxygen will be consumed in the combustion process. 

Kev

[uglydukwling]

The water produced by burning the hydrogen is irrelevant, whether it's burned by atmospheric oxygen or oxygen from the generator. The main products of combustion of any fuel you're likely to burn (gasoline, diesel, propane,  natural gas) are carbon dioxide and water, so there will be water vapor in the engine in any case. That's why it's supposed to be bad for an engine to let it run briefly, without getting it warm enough to let the water escape as vapor instead of condensing in the engine. The small amount of water produced by burning a little hydrogen will have little effect on the total.

If water vapor is carried over from the generator, it will have no effect, except to slightly dilute the air/fuel mixture. If a mist of liquid water is carried from the generator to the engine, it could actually be beneficial. Water injection is common in engines running under high load, such as racing engines. Its main benefit seems to be to improve cooling,allowing the engine to run at higher loads( and burn more fuel). If the water mist contains an electrolyte, that's bad. The electrolyte will promote corrosion.

The more important issue is whether any of this is worth doing. If you can get more energy out of burning the hydrogen than it took to produce it, you have a perpetual motion machine. It just can't be done. Some of the companies selling these kits sidestep this basic fact by not claiming that the combustion of the hydrogen itself increases fuel mileage. Rather, they claim that burning the hydrogen somehow improves the combustion of the main fuel. At least this claim doesn't violate any basic laws of physics, but they're always a little short of details on how it works.