Ignition failure, LJ & TJs' Great adventure!

[LJ-TJ]

Sent: 5/10/2008 11:03 AM

As with every old winnie, every trip is an adventure and this one was know different for L.J. and I.  On a recent spring shake down run to Detroit MI. from Straffordville Ontario Canada. Lauren and I proceeded to pull up to the U.S. Customs inspection booth to get cleared to enter the U.S. . Now picture a line of twenty anxious Americans on a Sunday at 4:30 in the evening wanting to get home after a weekend in Canada staring at the back of a big old winnie. While checking for aliens in the winne the customs agent asked to have the motorhome shut down which isn't normally a problem, well that is until 4:30 on a Sunday night at the border. You guessed it. Nothing.....not a click....nothing...dead in the water and not a clue what to do. Fortunately we had some incredible customs agents that went above and beyond and helped push the old girl off to the side. Say what you will about U.S. Customs but these folks were teriffic. So what do you do? Who do you call??? SOB! HELP......Sure enough a quick call to Sob and the next thing you know the phones ringing and it's Clyde9. With the help of the boys were up and running. I ended up jumping the starter with a screwdriver from the battery terminal to the solenoid terminal. On the road again...Thank You Winnebago Site....I would tell you about the accelerator cable breaking on the interstate but then that's another story....... 

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Fusible links are attached to Starter Relay however the lights and the ignition switch are feed from a common fusible link.  Only the hazard flasher is run from the 2nd fusible link.

Another potential problem area is the curved connector on the steering column at the bottom of the dash.  The pins overheat from corrosion resulting in loss of power to the ignition switch.

Dave

[Mytdawg]

The wiring isn't "too bad" but the previous owner had a love affair with scotch locks and did a few hinkey things with them.  Actually in the price range I was shopping (between poor white trash and frat house ), by far it was the best I found.  I did replace the battery/ign fuse which had blown but it wasn't enough to bring it back and it's no longer blowing.  There's also a scorch mark on the back of the fuse panel on interior lights fuse I believe which may have been to his overuse of the scotch locks.  That fuse is still intact, looks like old damage.  But it will take a while to deconstruct his work.  Especially with my fat butt trying to work under the dash.  May have to pull the seat to work on it. 

Thanks a bunch for the information Dave, you are always much appreciated as well as the previously inconvenienced in this thread.  I'll work on it as time permits (unit is actually in SO's yard 100 miles away, my 30'x100' lot isn't conducive to Winnebago storage) and update when needed.

[denisondc]

Sent: 5/10/2008 3:26 PM

   Please tell us what the starting problem was, so when it happens to us we will know what to do.  The last time I went to start mine everything went dead.  I found the fusible link was okay, but its connector had corroded apart.  I am still thinking whether I should fix it to be exactly as it was, or replace the link with a circuit breaker, mounted to the seat pedestal or something.

[Oz]

Sent: 10/05/2008 4:03 PM

I had a very similar situation on the way to the Circle M Jamboree.  Only I was at the gas pump at a small station.  Exactly the same thing happened.  I had cars lined up behind me out onto the road.  While checking for the problem, I had to keep waving them past me.

In my case, something had caused the end of the thick wire coming from the battery isolator to the battery litterally blow off.  The cable connector had a huge chunk out of it and it was badly burnt.  I took the other cable (to chassis electrical system), off the other side of the isolator, cut off the fried connector from the battery wire, and spliced them together.  That by-passed the isolator and I had power again. 

Just in view of the exit ramp for the campgroud off the highway, the rig would intermittently lose power.  Not electrical, but enigine power and then kick back in, until finally... it didn't kick back in.  We coasted off to the side and called our CW friends at the campground but,... as TJ said, "That's another story..."

~ Phåråoh ~

[LJ-TJ]

Sent: 10/05/2008 6:55 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa Well we spent half the time starting it with a screw driver and the other half it started normal. I just came back in from working on her and Aaaaaaaaaaa it's doing it again. When you turn the key on the Amp gauge springs to life the radio lights up but when you turn the key to start the amp gauge goes to 0 and the lights on the radio go off and nothing happens. Aaaaaaaaa its driving me crazy oh ya and I think some kinda solenoid clicks. not the solenoid on the starter. The battery is good and the head lights don't dim when all this happens. Anybody got any ideas. By the way thanks again to Clyde9 for calling when we were on the road and offering to help.

[Slantsixness]

Sent: 10/05/2008 8:33 PM

TJ,

Neutral safety switch on the transmission. three wires on it. Check it out... right behind the selector and downshift lever, but before the Speedo cable on the trans.

Also, a misaligned or binding Shifter cable. Try starting it in neutral, or... hold the starter switch in "start" then move the selector from park to neutral and back again. Did it try to or start? then the cable is messed up or the switch.

Also, check your reverse lights when in reverse. Do they come on? if not, and it won't start, it all points to the neutral safety switch... and they do go bad. Plus, after 30 years, the connector that used to be soft plastic is now a brittle, hard piece of disintegrating crud... so don't be surprised if it breaks when you breathe on it!

Another annoying Dodge thing....
on the battery cable of class C's... (and most all cars and trucks) there's a + wire that goes directly to the starter solenoid (not the starter.. the solenoid on the inside of the frame, near where the brake lines go up to the master cylinder.)

Anyway, I've seen this wire come loose on anything but a motorhome chassis, because it comes directly from the battery + terminal. If you have this wire going to your battery, it will be about half the size of the main battery cable, check that too.

And yes, there should be two fusable links attached to the starter solenoid. check them if you can... eliminate them altogether if you want. They serve no useful purpose, but can cause troubles  (like not starting!).

[LJ-TJ]

Sent: 11/05/2008 4:50 AM

Thanks Mate We'll giver a try. I'm heading out now and let you know what happens.. I'm just out of ideas.

[denisondc]

Sent: 11/05/2008 6:37 AM

    When the ign. key is in the 'run' position it provides 12 volts to the ign. #1 circuit - to power the ignition system through the ignition resistor.  When you turn the ign. key to the start position it will shut off all of the accessories, and provide power to the ign.#2 circuit instead.  Thats for starting; and bypasses the ignition resistor to give a little hotter spark.  But ign.#2  has nothing to do with powering the starter.  Thats done by another circuit in the ign. switch that merely shorts a wire to ground.  The other end of that wire (which I think is either pink or orange) runs to the starter relay, to one of the two small terminals on it.  The other small terminal on the starter relay is the one that should have 12 volts on it, anytime the shifter is in Park or Neutral (and the tranny agrees, and the fuse for the horn isnt blown.  (This is what the neutral safety switch does, as well as supplying 12 volts to the backup lights).

    If you bypass the neutral safety switch using a jumper wire, from the biggest terminal on the starter relay (which cable comes from the battery) to the small terminal that comes from the neutral safety switch, then turning the ignition on should cause the starter to work - even if the transmission was in gear.

    Naturally bypassing any safety feature like that can be dangerous, if not for you, then for some future owner who wont know about it.   You would have to establish which of the small terminals on the starter relay ran to the ignition switch by having your accomplice hold the key in the 'start' position while you measure to see which wire to the starter relay was now grounded.

    At least that is how my Winnie works and someone fails to work.  Its all laid out in the wiring diagram - obscurely.
There is at least one connector between the wiring in the ignition switch and the wiring harness running to the starter relay; and on my Winnie its easy to hit it with my foot - so check thats not worked loose.  There may be another connector, I cant recall, inconveniently located where the big wiring harness run from the dashboard down through the floor in front of the driver's feet. 

   The original intent of the fusible link (or links after about 73) was to protect the wiring from being melted in the case of a short somewhere.  The fusible links were the sacrificial parts.   After all these years the corrosion has rendered them 'suspects' whenever I have a wiring problem.  I made up a new one and soldered it in place, since the connector for my fusible link was corroded away.

[LJ-TJ]

Sent: 5/19/2008 10:42 PM

Thank You Winzilla....That's right after hours and days of following up leads from fellow classic winnaboers and just before I put a match to her Lo and behold who pulls in the driveway but nun other than Winzilla himself. Like so many of us the PO's have decided they are all experts when it comes to wiring when in fact they couldn't wire ----. Anyway after several hours of  tracing wires all which traced out positive we traced everything back to the ground wire on the neutral safety switch on the transmission. That was the problem. Good call on the starter solenoid but it checked out good. Thanks to Glen I now have a better understanding of more of my wiring system.

THANKS AGAIN GLEN!

[Mytdawg]

Looks like I now get to recreate this experience.  However I have the luxury of doing it in my yard.  Went to start it to take it in and get shocks and other minor repairs so I could use it this year and got about 5 cranks out of it and it went completely dead.  Tried another battery...  dead.  I've got headlights but nothing on the dash and no starter/relay/noise - nada.  My first guess was fusible link as I've seen that before with old cars.  Looks like I'll start with this thread and work my way through everyone else's experience as I may as well get a good feel for it in case I have to do this on the road.  What fun!      My first motor home failure, I suspect it won't be my last.

[Mytdawg]

Well I replaced both fusible links and that weren't it.  But I got a scorched wire nut out of the circuit.  I tested to make sure I had power at the relay where all the links terminate and that worked.  I had power on the battery side of the fuse panel but nothing on the ignition side.  Pulled both the wide connectors off below the steering column, checked and cleaned them.  Thought maybe I had lost the ignition switch but after dinking around with the under dash disaster area found some real questionable work by Scotchlock McGee. 

Was trying to trace what was scotchlocked to what when the blower kicked on!  Turns out McGee had cut, scotchlocked and poorly butt connected the two main (I assume) ignition wires.  Ran the damn radio power off the main ignition wire    .  Finest radio Sparkomatic ever made, I'm sure.   :)rotflmao   That will be following the scotchlocks into the trash when the important stuff is done.  I held the wire to where I had fan noise and the motor turned over.  Cut off all the extraneous power taps and spliced the main wires back to where they were supposed to go.  It runs again!      Now I'm back to just needing shocks, u-joints and brake lights and I think we might be able to go somewhere.

[Oz]

Good job tracking that one down.  PO re-wiring can be the worst thing to deal with.

[DaveVA78Chieftain]

Weeee!  Aren't electrons fun! 

Glad to hear you worked it out.