Removing the Radiator on a 1987 Winnie Elandan P37 Chassis

HamRad Mobile · July 05, 2015, 02:44 PM

Good morning;

I have searched the files using; "removing the radiator," "radiator removal," "pulling the radiator," and "taking out the radiator." No results. Most often the A. I. R. system removal subject comes up.

I am in Ellensburg, Washington, waiting for the truck to deliver a new radiator found in Michigan that should be here perhaps tomorrow. I am wondering if anyone else has tried to take the radiator out through the front of a Winnebago Elandan on the GMC P37 chassis?

I think that I can drop the engine oil cooler down below the frame, pull the bolts holding the air conditioner condenser and the auxiliary electric cooling fans in front of the radiator, swing the air conditioner condenser forward and move it forward a little, and then unbolt the radiator, swing it forward, and then lift it up, tilt forward, and take it out the front of the grill area. The radiator coolant recover tank, the windshield washer fluid tank, and other things, are already out of the central front area for additional working room.

Does this seem to be practical and reasonable? Or, must I accept that the air conditioner must be opened and the air conditioner condenser must be removed before the radiator can come out? I had hoped to avoid opening the air conditioner itself, if possible. The forced conversion to the R-134a refrigerant instead of the Freon R-12 will be a significant additional expense.

And now there is also a manual over-ride electrical switch to turn on those auxiliary electrical fans when I want them to come on. Trying to keep this thing cool in 108Âº weather turned out to be a real challenge. There is more work to be done in this area.

Enjoy;

Ralph, Ham Radio HF Mobile
usually in Latte Land, Washington

Rickf1985 · July 05, 2015, 07:56 PM

I did all of what you mentioned plus fiddling around the power steering reservoir on the passenger side in front of the radiator. I was able to wiggle it around enough to get the radiator past it. I already had the charcoal canisters loose on the passengers side in the fender well, they attach to the side of the radiator support. The A/C line to the filter was already off on mine so I do not know if you can move the condenser enough or not.

cncsparky · July 06, 2015, 12:45 PM

The radiator support is in two pieces. Getting those bolts on the sides are a pain. Once loose you can tilt the radiator forward to remove.

Be careful with the AC condensor, I rotated mine up to get out of the way and twisted/broke one of the hard lines going in it. I have seen pics of it being rotated up successfully tho.

http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php/topic,9139.msg46724.html#msg46724

HamRad Mobile · July 07, 2015, 12:48 AM

Good morning, all;

In the continuing saga;

The new 2 pass aluminum core radiator that was flown in from Michigan is 1/2 inch too narrow, and the bolt holes do not line up, except on one side only, but you can choose which side lines up. Then there is the point that there is a port on the plastic tanks for the "upper" radiator hose, and a port for the "lower" radiator hose, but there is no port for the radiator cap nor any way to fill the radiator with antifreeze or coolant, plus there is no place for the temperature sending unit in the cooler fluid tank where the automatic transmission fluid heat exchanger is also fitted. It won't work.

We even thought of a way to cut and fit a copper pipe "Tee" into the upper radiator hose and attach an external radiator pressure cap mount or fill port with another radiator hose connecting the leg of the "Tee" to the external fill port. If I parked sideways on a hill with the right side of the motor home up hill, eventually I could burp all the air out of the system and get it to work properly.

So the shop decided to compromise, and they sent out the original copper and brass four (4) pass radiator to be rebuilt with a new four pass copper or brass core. Another two or three days. OK.

But the mechanic did find a problem with the underside of the old upper radiator hose also, so it is a good thing that we are doing all the work of replacing just about everything while we have open access to the front and top of the 454 engine.

You know, when this is all done, this thing is going to be almost like new. I say almost, because in some ways, it is going to be better than new. The new "heavy duty" water pump with the improved bearings and seals, along with the closer fitting impeller with one more blade on it, should help to keep the coolant moving along better than the original equipment water pump.

The obvious things to be done while the front and top of the engine is exposed and accessible are being done also; the thermostat, the fan belts, the water hoses, and the other "soft parts."

Now I am working on the other improvements to be done.

The temporary external switch to turn on the two auxiliary electric fans is already in place. That will be improved by extending the wiring for the switch and moving the switch permanently inside where it can be reached while driving, and I want to turn on the fans regardless of what the thermal switch is doing.

Then there are the things to be done with the 3L80 three speed automatic transmission to reduce its heat contribution to the "lower tank" on the radiator. It is going to get a deeper finned aluminum transmission fluid pan and an external fan cooled radiator put into the hot transmission fluid line going up to the radiator "lower tank." If I do it right, I can have the transmission fluid passing through the radiator "lower tank" cooler than the engine coolant, and I can pull some heat out of the the "lower tank." (It seems funny to keep referring to the tank holding the cooled coolant having passed through the radiator core as the "lower tank" on a cross-flow radiator, but that is what the mechanics here are using to refer to it.)

Later I will also move the mounts for those two auxiliary fans up about two inches or so to get the improved air flow from the fans blowing through the hottest parts of the radiator core. Maximum heat exchange takes place where the temperature differential is the greatest.

And the engine oil cooler up front will also get new custom made oil lines from the oil filter spin-on adapter, and the new mounts for the engine oil cooler will raise it up about two inches so the engine oil cooler lower pass tubes air flow will no longer be blocked by the cross member to which it is currently bolted. I do not understand why GMC or Winnebago (whoever did it) mounted the engine oil cooler that way.

The engine oil filter itself is also getting a heat shield to reduce the heat contribution to the oil filter from the nearby exhaust pipe.

There will also be some sheet metal paneling added to the bottom of the central space where the radiator is located, to reduce the ability of the incoming cooling air to drop out the bottom of that central space through the lower cross members. There is also some additional paneling planned to extend out to the next vertical row of openings in the grill to funnel the air from those openings over and into the central area in an effort to increase the air flow volume in the central area. I might also add some additional paneling down lower than the front bumper to catch and deflect some additional air up to the engine oil cooler to try helping keep it cooler.

People, this is turning out to be a truly revelationary learning experience for me. And it has also brought up a lot of questions; mainly ones beginning with the word; "Why?"

While this is a truly personal opinion, I think that there are some really effective ways to correct the "production line compromises" that reduced the effectiveness of the existing cooling system for an engine system with a known reputation for "running hot."

OK. If all goes reasonably well over the next couple of days, I could be back home by Friday, or maybe even Thursday evening. Only a delay of 11 or 12 days. But that is why I have a "recreational vehicle;" to help me spend the time in a relaxing way. Waiting for the arrival of needed parts does leave some time for relaxation.

Enjoy;

Ralph
usually in Latte Land, Washington

circleD · July 07, 2015, 09:20 AM

I'm glad that you are replacing all the parts you can while you have the front open. It'll give you a good feeling going down the road. I've replaced my water pump and other parts then they start to rust in a few months. I'd advise you to paint what you can to keep them clean. I live in NC so the humidity is bad here. Good luck and try to document the part #s and wrench/ socket size used for each then keep those handy for repairs or helping others with them.

gpw9552 · July 07, 2015, 10:50 AM

Ralph

While your at it, you might want to replace the 1 quart oil filter with a 2 quart.

NAPA has them.

HamRad Mobile · September 14, 2015, 12:15 AM

Good morning, all;

Yes, now it is the middle of September. This is an "update" of the continuing saga of the overheating incident from Sunday, 2015 June 30 in Eastern Washington in the 108Âº weather that day.

I had hoped to be able to provide a concluding message to post here when the work was done, but it has not been accomplished yet. However, this last Friday, I was told that the new engine (yup, a replacement engine) had been installed in the P37 frame the week before, and they had finished re-installing the things for the engine, and now the front end was going back together. There had been a rumor that they might be test driving the poor thing by last Friday. That did not happen.

The most recent projection is that things "might" be done this coming week. Part of the delay was extended by an injury to the mechanic who had taken the Elandan apart, and they (and I agree) wanted him to be the one to put the vehicle back together. Handing a mechanic a "basket case" job is highly likely to produce things that are not installed properly, or with the wrong mounts, and other negative consequences. I am glad that the mechanic is feeling better now, and while he is not yet completely recovered to fully normal, he is in there and is working on it.

Yes, this has been a prolonged trial. At two and one-half months now, the Summer is basically gone for the main part of the year when it had been planned to have the Elandan out and playing.

However, I can also say that with the new engine and everything else that has been done and is being done, the running gear for the Elandan is basically back to "like new" condition. Once it is broken in again, I will have a vehicle that should have a reliability level very much like a new one. I guess there are some positive aspects of even a trial like this one.

And I do have in stock most of the "improvements" that I have been wanting to put into the Elendan. There are projects for this winter. It should really be one rolling machine when we hit the road with it next year.

With them talking about reassembling the front end and road testing the thing, it seemed that it might be both hopeful and appropriate to say something about the progress that looks to be happening with the Elandan.

And I am appropriately jealous of all the things that others have been saying about what they have done with their RVs this Summer.

Enjoy;

Ralph
Latte Land, Washington

Rickf1985 · September 14, 2015, 07:07 AM

I am TOTALLY lost here? i?? How did you go from a radiator replacement to a complete NEW engine? New big blocks are pricey.

HamRad Mobile · September 14, 2015, 01:46 PM

Good morning, Rick;

Yes, this one has turned out to be not only "an adventure," but also "a challenge."

Yeah, we knew about the radiator, but it was not until the re-cored radiator had been re-installed and they tried to start the good old 454 that the coolant leak getting into the exhaust system became evident. It seems that the overheating was a little more than I thought. I had restarted the engine a couple of times, including a couple hours later when it seemed like a good idea to move the Elandan up to a more level area where it would be easier for the Class "C" tow truck to hook up and start the tow to the shop. From my description of having restarted and driven the motor home a short distance a couple of times, everyone thought that the engine was OK. Not so.

After they got the Elandan onto the lift and had pulled off the heads, they could see what had happened to cylinders 3 and 4. They were actually still workable, but they would become a problem in the future. I could have made it back home with just new head gaskets, but I know that I would be back in there again in the future. The future came in a much shorter time period than I thought. It seemed like a good idea.

Anyway, basically, I have a new power system now. It should be much more reliable and ready for the treks that have been deferred until next year.

I did properly receive and carry around Number One Son and his son back in August, but that was done using the Subaru and motels. A little more expensive a trip to Chula Vista than I had planned using the motor home, but we did it. Not only has the US Government recognized Grayson's United States Citizenship, but he also has a position on the team, if he wants it, and now that he is recognized as a US citizen, he can be on the team. The coach wants him.

Sometimes things in life do not turn out they way that you thought they would. July may not have been very good, but August went very well, indeed.

Enjoy;

Ralph
Latte Land, Washington

M & J · September 14, 2015, 05:46 PM

This must have cost a fortune.

HamRad Mobile · September 14, 2015, 06:00 PM

Good morning, Mike and Janie (and Rick, too);

Well, I am not sure that I can say that it was "a fortune," but it is a noticeable amount of money, yes. And the absolute total has not yet been determined.

I had asked just last week if we were still on the schedule with the last major estimate of the total amount, and I was told it will still be in the range of $12,000 to $15,000 for the parts, the work, and the towing.

In comparison, it is still a lot less than child support. I have a measure of experience in that realm also, so I really can draw that comparison. And, looking back over the last 30 years or so, the motor home is a lot more fun. It's worth it.

Enjoy;

Ralph
Latte Land, Washington

M & J · September 14, 2015, 08:13 PM

Wow.

HamRad Mobile · September 18, 2015, 05:58 PM

Good morning;

Dare I really get my hopes up?

This morning there came a telephone call from the shop where the Elandan is being rebuilt. The news for today is that everything is back together, and they will be taking it out for a longer range test drive tomorrow, Saturday. They do want to watch for any problems while testing tomorrow, yes, and they will go back over all the reasonably reachable nuts, bolts, and other fasteners to retorque them and insure that everything is going stay together when it is handed back to me, and it looks like that will be perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday of next week.

One nice thing is that they are also putting in for me a few of the things that I had been planning for reducing the heat input into the radiator and cooling system, in order to make the engine cooling system more efficient and effective. There will be a fan cooled external automatic transmission fluid cooler installed as one of those things done to make it better.

Truly this has been a long term project. At last it does seem to be coming to a conclusion. Having taken now just about a full three months, yes, the Summer is just about over also. Oh, well.

One consolation I can see is that it will have an engine and power train reliability rather like a new vehicle when it comes back to me. It will be nice to have some rather carefree driving with it on the few short term excursions planned for this late Fall and Winter, and then there is all that has been deferred until next Summer.

One of the things about the RV life style is that it is supposed to be relaxing. I just did not anticipate that it would involve so much relaxation right during what I had thought would be the most active period of the year.

I just hope that everything really does come back together this weekend, and the Winnebago Elandan really does come back to me next week.

Enjoy;

Ralph
Latte Land, Washington

Rickf1985 · September 18, 2015, 06:16 PM

I certainly hope you get to use it once or twice before you have to winterize it. You have the patience of a saint! I understand the concerns of having another mechanic finish a job but I have done that more times than I can count and most good mechanics will organize things to a certain extent as they take them apart. Once you figure out their pattern it is not that bad. And I am sure they could have asked him about something if there was any question about the location of a part.
I can't begin to tell you how many basket case engines, transmissions, cars and motorcycles I have put back together when the person SWORE to me that all the parts were there. Yea, Right. N:( W%
It sounds like you have a decent shop there though so since you were happy to wait then things worked out in the end.

HamRad Mobile · September 26, 2015, 11:40 AM

Good morning, Rick, Mike and Jane, et al;

The motor home is home.

The Winnebago Elandan is finally back home. I drove it back yesterday afternoon.

Yes, this turned out to be much more than a simple repair or replacement of the radiator; the first obvious problem that required it going to see a mechanic. And then there is the point that the final corrective action was to replace the GM 454 cid V8 engine assembly.

It took a long time. I missed almost all of the Summer with it. There are one or two more events this Fall that I think I can make.

Now to get to working on the few things that need to be done to really put it back in working order, and the wash it and clean it so that it will be ready for the coming Winter. It may not get too much time off this Winter. I am hoping to be able to take it up to the pass for ski patrol this Winter. They even have a few places where it can be plugged in to a 120 VAC 15 Ampere circuit for keeping a little heat inside it to help the water system while I am out in the area, but I am planning on draining the water and winterizing the water system for that service while up there. I can carry some water containers that will be enough for the things I need to do inside. The main thing is to have a place to sleep, and the Suburban propane heater should make that part quite comfortable.

Well, yes, all of this does assume that we will have snow this coming Winter. We did not get snow last year. That was weird.

There is still radio work and some other things to be done to make the Elandan even better. It sure is nice to have it back, and to know that it has a reliability level probably very much like a new vehicle now.

Enjoy;

Ralph
Latte Land, Washington