440 Bad head gasket. Repair or swap with fire damaged 318?

LJ-TJ · May 15, 2012, 09:08 PM

Man I don't even want to ask this question but I'll explain later. You have a 1975 440 Winnebago. You take out the engine. You have a 1975 Winnebago 318 sitting in the driveway. You take it out. Is it a straight bolt in. Will it bolt up to the 440 tranny? Mechanics 101? I don't know if I got one more time left in me. I don't know if you guys can put up with this stuff one more time. You haven't herd the best part yet but I want to see if I even got a fight'n chance with the switch. If a yes I got one more jim dandy question left.

ibdilbert01 · May 15, 2012, 09:18 PM

Off the top of my head, you'll have to swap the tranny too as a 440 has a different bell / bolt pattern than the small blocks.

Wantawinnie · May 15, 2012, 09:23 PM

I agree, the tranny has to go too.

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 15, 2012, 09:28 PM

I thought you still had the whole burned winne right? If so, then you even have the 318 tranny and driveshaft. Both are M300 chassis. Is the wheelbase the same? Asking because of driveshaft length. If wheelbase is the same then all components just move directly over. Exhaust would move over. Engine electronics are almost identical except for distributor. Motor mounts might have to transfer. You will need to understand wiring (318 wiring get burned up?). All in all I would think this should be doable without to much trouble since you have a complete 318 winnie sitting there.

Dave

LJ-TJ · May 15, 2012, 10:38 PM

That was the other question. When the Winnie burnt the dog house melted and collapsed on top of the motor. However the heat melted hoses, spark plug wires, just about anything plastic. Toasted the power steering pump. Would it have had any effect on the clutch fan. Would it have effected the motor proper? Gaskets, seals. I got to be out of my mind think of doing this.

sdkid · May 15, 2012, 11:08 PM

I would replace the clutch fan too.

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 15, 2012, 11:10 PM

I doubt it hurt the base motor itself, but you would have to take stuff off to see for sure. More worried about melted plastic might have gotten into it. It was the plastic power steering fluid resevoiur that melted. Pull the carb off, check intake opening below. Pull valve covers and check valve stem seals for any evidence of melting. Engine is designed to run at hot temps so it would take time for the heat of the fire to be absorbed internally. If I recall, while the front did burn it could not have burned for that long (timewise) for as much to be saved as there was. Take some pics an post them here so people can get a better feel for how bad it might be.

Bed time for me - night
Dave

LJ-TJ · May 15, 2012, 11:36 PM

I'll get you some pictures tomorrow. I got to be out of my frigg'n mind. i??

Elandan2 · May 16, 2012, 11:12 AM

Why are you thinking about this swap? If the head gaskets are gone, pull the heads and change them. If that is all that is wrong, it can be done in a day. I just did mine, had the heads completely rebuilt with new stellite seats, valves, springs, seals, etc., and while not cheap, it was still more economical than an engine swap (or a new motorhome!!). The other thing to consider here is that you wanted a 440 when you were looking for a new rig and changing it back to a 318 may be a disappointment. Don't give up on the old 440 just yet. Rick

LJ-TJ · May 16, 2012, 11:42 AM

Hey Rick, It boils down to two things. MONEY and Talent. Bottom line we're broke and I surely don't have the talent. I don't even qualify for Mechanics 101. It's either swap and use what I got or I just added to my junk collection. 440 are you kidding! What a difference it makes. In a 21 footer wow, if I was buying again wouldn't even consider anything else. BUT ya gotta go with what ya got. It's a 318 and that's even a maybe. Maybe some time down the road when we got a little more money I'll be able to do the 440. Lots of guys out there know what I'm talk'n about. It sucks being broke.

ibdilbert01 · May 16, 2012, 11:52 AM

Changing a head gasket would be easier than changing out the whole engine. Head gaskets are cheap and because of the low miles, I myself wouldn't do anything else to it while I was in there.

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 16, 2012, 12:12 PM

Food for thought:
Part of whats being said is that if this is just a head gasket issue (the block or the head is not cracked or warped), then replacing the head gasket is not hard. Thing is, even if you do discover more issies (ie. cracked head) you would still have the option of swapping in the 318. You do not even have to purchase any 440 parts to determine if it is just a head gasket. Just your time is involved to disassemble for inspection. Like you, this is coming from someone who knows the "being broke" deal all to well.

Dave

ibdilbert01 · May 16, 2012, 01:14 PM

I'd still like to know how the mechanic came to the conclusion it was a faulty head gasket?

Arberg0 · May 16, 2012, 01:53 PM

correct me if i am wrong here guys but many years ago i had a head gasket go on a car of mine and i could tell by the colour of the oil in the sump it was a milky white were water had got past the blown part of the gasket and into the oilwell part of the moter i to would love to know how this mechanic came to this point as you drove dimples all the way home all those miles and never had a problem and now a major thing like this sounds a little bit far out to me did you ever find out if the water pump was working

LJ-TJ · May 16, 2012, 02:04 PM

Well if you'll bear with me, I'll go back up to the garage tomorrow and talk with them. This is a good old boys shop were mechanics hang out. I've yet to know anybody to say they got ripped off by these lads and they've always treeted me fair and square and charged a reasonable price.

Lefty · May 16, 2012, 02:11 PM

If you remove the heads yourself (which isn't hard... just start at the top & unbolt stuff till you get them off), any good machine shop should be able to rebuild them for around $150/pr...This would include the cleaning(vatting),replacement of valve stem seals,knurling the valve guides,and re-seating the valves(lapping the seats) and resurfacing the head. You can also request that the magnaflux the heads to look for cracks...
It would be cheaper to do this, than to complete an engine swap...especially since yours will need some upper components that were damaged in the fire.
Also, you might look into purchasing another winne thats got a running 440 in it, but has a bad roof or other serious issue... I have seen them as cheap as $300 before, especially if it's got a really bad roof & the interior is ruined. and you could probably snatch the engine out and still sell the hull for the same as you bought it for to someone else.

As for us putting up with your questions.... I'd say with all the stuff you have contributed over the years, you've earned at least one freebie... maybe even two...

LJ-TJ · May 16, 2012, 02:44 PM

Thought you might like to see what I've got to work with. I'll do a run to the garage in the morning but I don't expect too much.

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 16, 2012, 04:59 PM

As far as the 318 condition, I really do not see anything that serious from those pics. I would pull the valve cover and check the valve seals in the burnt area. Sure some plastic and paint burnt but I would say the fire was put out before any serious damge to the engine occured.

A head gasket can fail in such a way that no real water gets in the oil or it's such a small amount you do not see a milky oil condition. Also depends on how big the leak is. However, you will not know how bad it is until you pull the head off.

Please do let us know why the mechanics say head gasket. Not because of disbelieve but trying to evaluate how serious the situation is. Thats why I asked about water pressure drop test and compression tests. Things like milky oil and such are important too.

Dave

sdkid · May 16, 2012, 08:40 PM

LJ, if you have the confidence to swap the engine and trans, you will not have an issue with putting head gaskets in. That engine is pretty simple by todays standards. The only extra tool you may need would be a torque wrench. Maybe that can be rented from an autozone or something. Maybe pay the good ole boy a few bucks to come over with his. If I was closer we could get together and do it up.

LJ-TJ · May 17, 2012, 10:02 PM

Well isn't this a fine how do you do. I went to the machine shop were I've had all my work done in the pass and explained to my bud what was going on with the motorhome and he came up with the same conclusion HEAD GASKETS. So I went up to the garage and talked with the boys to see what exactly the did to establish that it was the he gaskets. Apparently after the rig cooled down the started it up and it blew exhaust gas and anti freeze out the rad. However after a general conversation and a few coffees seems one of the Lads is will to give me a hand changing the head gaskets. Sounds good. We'll see.

ibdilbert01 · May 17, 2012, 10:38 PM

I love it when a plan comes together! Sounds like you got things under control, life is good!

LJ-TJ · May 20, 2012, 09:37 AM

Well seems I am out of my frigging mind. Seems after all my talk'n I'm going it alone. I figured the engine is toast already so what the hell. I'll start taring it down in the morning. Somebody said something about getting the head planed and the exhaust manifold leveled or something to that effect to make sure nothing is warped and it goes back together tight. Hm?

Elandan2 · May 20, 2012, 06:49 PM

Don't lose your confidence just yet. The heads come off a 440 relatively easy. The hardest part for me is always getting the exhaust manifolds off. Spray the bolts with PB Blaster and let it soak in, preferably overnight. Once you get the manifolds off, the ignition wires, cap and spark plugs and then the intake and carb can come off as a unit. Then the valley pan gasket, rocker covers,rocker arms and push rods. Don't forget to label those pushrods so they go in the same place and orientation. Then it's the heads. There are 17 head bolts to remove but they are only torqued to 70 lb. ft. so there not on all that tight. The 5 head bolts lying directly under the rocker shafts are longer than the others, be sure to keep them separate. Then they can come off. If you look at the old gaskets, you will probably find the place they have leaked and can go from there. The piston(s) in the affected cylinders may also be very clean as well. Then you can check the heads for flatness with a metal straightedge, have a look at the valves and go from there. As far as the exhaust gaskets go, I find that copper gaskets save alot of headaches and as long as everything is reasonably true, the gasket will take up the slack and they are reusable too. We're all behind you, any questions just ask and take pictures!! Rick

LJ-TJ · May 21, 2012, 07:48 AM

Well! Thanks Mate, Tomorrows the big day. I start. Sit down, strap in and hang on. I'll drive you guys nuts.

LJ-TJ · May 21, 2012, 05:18 PM

OK you guys, I think your pulling my leg on how simple it is to change these heads. Either that or your all contortionists. How in thunder'n do you expect a guy to get the head off the drivers side. Shoot you can't even get the spark plugs out. It's no wonder everyone changes the plugs at every two hundred thousand miles.

I started chipping away at it today and the way I work it's not going to be a fast project, the drivers side is going to give me fits. Lots of labeling and pictures. Back at it tomorrow.