no batteries, no power, no ideas. . .

Espiritus · May 12, 2013, 07:49 PM

Ok, fine folks. I finally got around to trying to hook up the Ramber ('83 imperial) to shore power. Wow was I surprised. Pulled out the cable and there was a THREE prong 50-amp strange plug on the end. The local rv folks said that someone (PO) wired a RANGE type plug on it, and they doubted if it had EVER been plugged into any rv power source. . .darn, and I thought the seller was so honest.

Swapped out the plug for a standard 30-amp which fit the rated service of the rv. . .put an adapter on the end and plugged it into my house. . .nothing. Checked and there was power at the source and no circuit tripped. . .but, nothing. Checked the main circuit breaker inside the rv and it was on. Nothing inside the rv tripped, but there is no power.

Checked the batteries the other day to replace them as the PO had told me that the batteries had been removed. Well, he didn't tell me that someone had cut the battery connectors and taped them. . . have I mentioned that honesty part?

So, anyone have any ideas of what I can check or look at, or maybe a switch somewhere that needs to be turned on or off? The PO says that "everything worked when he plugged it in and he never had any trouble." Which I would tend to believe (because I am incredibly gullible) if it weren't for this strange 3-prong, 50-amp plug that has been attached to it. . .the three prongs are two slant blades, one straight blade. . .like for a stove. . .

I have found a person who has the same rv as mine who is going to take pictures of his battery array so maybe I can get mine reconnected. . .oh, and the generator that the PO said worked? Has NO fuel line running to it, and a strange lamp wire criss crossed on it in a Y configuration that makes no sense. . .that the PO says he has NEVER seen. . .doesn't know how it got there or what it is for. . .really.

Connections to the generator are non-existent. . .

But my main issue right now is to figure out why there is no power to the lights inside the RV. Any ideas?

Elandan2 · May 12, 2013, 08:00 PM

Do you have an automatic transfer switch (ATS)? Maybe the switch is not switching over and is stuck on the "generator" portion. Then you would get no [power from the shore power cord. Rick

LJ-TJ · May 12, 2013, 09:09 PM

i?? If you could post some pictures would be a great help for us. It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Elandan2 · May 12, 2013, 09:18 PM

Or a picture creates a thousand questions!!

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 12, 2013, 09:23 PM

The best place to start is to give us an idea of what you have. If I remember correctly, you have 2 power panels, a PAC-1500W inverter, converter, and a Kohler generator. You may also have a GFI system. Knowing what power center, converter, and such you have will help us help you work through this.
1. Power center: Mfg, model. What CB's sizes and lables.
2. 2nd power panel: Mfg, model, What CB's and sizes. I suspect this serves the output of the PAC-1500. If I recall, Coachman had a switch behind the drives seat that turned the inverter on and off. I believe the Inverter selects between battery or shore power as the AC source. for this panel
3. The 84 manual indicates you move the shore power cable to a receptical in the generator compartment to select generator.
4. converter mfg and model

Do you feel comfortable using a mulltimeter to make AC and DC measurements?
Do you feel comfortable opening up the AC panels to check for voltages on the CB's?
We wil need to get 110VAC working fist. Then move to the DC side.
Like I said though, we will need to know what you have in order to help. Pictures are a plus.

Dave

HandyDan · May 12, 2013, 10:48 PM

Behind the driver's seat is the inverter panel. Be sure the switch is on shorepower.

Your shorepower plug should look like this: I hope when you wired up the new plug you didn't wire it for 220vt. The slanted plugs are positive and ground. The straight plug is ground. Just like a common three plug house wire. I'm sure Dave will give you the correct wiring diagram.

Behind the left rear bumper is a receptacle for the shorepower plug when you want to run off the generator. Just plug in and turn on the generator. No switches, beeps, or buttons to push.

Stripe · May 13, 2013, 03:04 AM

What about the switch and reset button above the Coach entry? I remember the day I first looked at my HR Imperial 28, some things did not work until I hit the reset button.

Fredric

HandyDan · May 13, 2013, 08:59 AM

Good Point. I disconnected my inverter, so I didn't think about the reset button.

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 13, 2013, 09:16 AM

While I know generic stuff, you guys know the HR specifics.
She has previously said she has 2 AC circuit breaker panels. I am guessing that one is for the inverter output which only supports a partial set of AC loads. I have no clue what loads those are. I would also expect there to be a CB on the main panel that is the feed to the inverter when shore power is selected.
Any idea where the converter is located? Is it part of the AC panel or seperate?

If you can, please describe what the reset switch does.

Dave

Motorhome/Trailer Plug (NEMA TT-30P)

Recepticle (NEMA TT-30R)

HandyDan · May 13, 2013, 11:19 AM

In my HR the electrical panels are under the storage cabinets on the passenger side of the coach. There are two of them. When the generator is running it powers the front air conditioner plus an outlet at the rear of a cabinet next to the microwave oven. They are live whether the shorepower line is plugged into the generator or not. If the generator is running, those items are powered. Consequently, there is an electrical panel just for that. The one on the right is the generator panel. If the generator is not running, you can flip those breakers all you want but nothing will happen.
The panel on the left is for shorepower. It has four circuits. #1 is the Main, #2 is for outlets near the beds, bath, table, and outside (it is GFI), #3 is for the applicances (oven vent, icemaker, vacuum cleaner, refrig, NuTone food center, and microwave), #4 is the air conditioners (switchable from the front to the rear, can't use both on shorepower. The switch panel on the far right).

HandyDan · May 13, 2013, 11:31 AM

Over the entry door is the monitor panel. On the right of it is the inverter reset and power gauge.

They are pretty much self explanatory, but I have never used my inverter so I really don't know if it even works. If you over power the inverter and pop the breaker, I guess you press the reset button and restore the system. I'm not sure why you would press the power button since there is a switch on the opposite wall that turns on the inverter. How about it, Coachman, do you know how it works?

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 13, 2013, 12:36 PM

PACS-1500 Modified Sine-Wave Inverter by GTO Electronics manual: http://www.irv2.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7904&d=1296073924.
Note: The author of the pdf also included a copy of the Triad-Utrad converter with it. He is saying that in his 85 HR they used that Ferro-resonate converter. Essentially a very heavy tuned transformer. You should be able to a light hear the humming from the transformer when running. Helps you to locate where they hid it

.

The PAC-1500 inverter does not automatically select between shore power and inverter power therefore a seperate transfer switch, as shown in Dan's picture above, to manually select between shore power and inverter supply is required. Whether or not it supplies all coach loads via the main power panel I do not know. Hopefully that switch transfers both the hot and neutral leads. I burnt up a inverter once by just switching the hot lead (feedback on neutral lead) so both hot and neutral must be switched.
The reset would be used to restart the inverter if it had shutdown due a low battery, overload, or output error occured.
While it does have a auto-on response to load condition when the power swtich is ON, it does draw a small ammount of power from the battery in order to monitor load condition. When storing you rig, that can drain the battery over time so turn the power swtich OFF when storing your rig for any length of time.

The generator has 2 seperate outputs. One output feeds the right hand aux panel for the 2nd AC and microwave. In the 80's they felt a microwave pulled to much power so they only allowed it to be powered from the 2nd generator line with the 2nd AC. Thats why the outlet plug is next to the microwave. The other generator output is used to feed the main AC breaker (left one in Dan's picture) picked up by the plug by the rear bumper.

GFI Circuit - Normally one GFI recepticle controls power to the entire string of recepticles. When the GFI trips, all the recepticles in the string loose power. If not seeing power at any rescepticle make sure the GFI breaker is not tripped and that there is power to the GFI recepticle.

Dave

Espiritus · May 13, 2013, 01:21 PM

Handy Dan's pictures are almost like my set up with the exception of the generator plug or whatever that is on the far right.

I have NO INVERTER box that I can locate, nor a switch behind my seat that changes the power source. The converter that I have is supposed to automatically do this based on the input source, Triad TU-430-2T.

I have the same rear bumper lift up and plug in for the generator as is shown in the pictures.

What I don't have is an honest Previous owner (PO) as there is no way he hooked up to any power source with the range plug that he had on this. . .

I changed out the plug to a two blade, one post 30-amp standard plug. I will open the connector again to make sure it is wired correctly to the posts. but I am pretty confident that the green went to the ground, the black to the hot and the white to the neutral. . .my daddy taught his daugher well!

I have nothing that I can find that has a manual switch or reset. I have the same monitoring system over my fridge as Dan is showing over his door, EXCEPT there is NO INVERTER section. There is no reset button that I can locate.

My three panels are in the closet, but, again, they look like Dan's and have the same labels. Where Dan is showing what appears to be a switch I have a 12-volt fuse array. I will try to figure out how to load pictures.

My wondering, right now, is whether when I connected to the house using an adapter to my new plug, if I might have not drawn enough power through the long extension cord to operate anything. And I totally didn't check to see if any of the wall plugs inside would work, as they should work independently of the converter for the 12v lights. . .right?

But the converter made NO HUMMING sound, which I am thinking means that it isn't working. . .Somewhere I read that there is a fuse inside the converter (?) and I am going to go out and search for it. . .

If I can get the house lights going, my next issue will be the generator. . .with only 325 hours which is bothersome since sitting does not do these things good. . .I ride motorcycles and do alot of my own wrenching, and have helped others with cleaning carbs that have sat too long with cruddy gas. . .

But, first, I have to figure out this power issue.

Oh, you show TWO circuit breaker boxes. Do BOTH of the mains have to be on or should one set be used when connected to the shore and the other set used when connected to the generator? I have both mains ON. . .

I'm on my way out to paint a final coat, in the dark bathroom, and will check fuses.

And will try to take pictures. . .

Cam

Stripe · May 13, 2013, 01:34 PM

The switch allows power to be supplied to the inverter, however the inverter is automatic (auto-on feature) so once the switch is pushed in to the ON position, everything else is automatic. It requires a minimum of 15 watts I believe to activate it. If the LED lights up you have an overload or a low battery situation. It will also automatically shut down if the input voltage falls below 10 volt or if the temperature of the unit exceeds I want to say 160 degrees F?
The RESET button is for overloads and I think to reset the PACS, should you have an undervolt situation and have rectified that problem either by charging or replacing the battery/ies.

I know I have the manual here somewhere, I will post it as soon as I can..

Fredric

Stripe · May 13, 2013, 01:39 PM

Lol, Thanks dave for saving me the trouble on the scans..

I have the same converter/charger as well..

Shame GTO electronics went out of business..

Fredric

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 13, 2013, 01:59 PM

She stated:

QuoteI have NO INVERTER box that I can locate, nor a switch behind my seat that changes the power source.

and

QuoteI have nothing that I can find that has a manual switch or reset. I have the same monitoring system over my fridge as Dan is showing over his door, EXCEPT there is NO INVERTER section. There is no reset button that I can locate.

She does not have a inverter
She has a TU-430-2T converter with the companion 12VDC fuse panel.
http://dave78chieftain.zxq.net/Triad-Urad/Triad-UradConverter.pdf

This figure is to get an idea across (2 seperate ouputs from the generator), it does not represent your actual setup (I have not made one setup like yours). Rather than an ATS swtich, you manually move your shore power cable. It is because of all the different possibilities of how things can be hooked up that I ask several questions.

The purple line in yours actually goes to the 2nd power panel which then feed the 2nd AC. You may also have the AC selector switch which allows you to either power the front or rear AC from the Main breaker.

The TU-430-2T ferro-resonant converter output will be hooked into the coach 12VDC system in the same manner a engine alternator is (in parrallel). Because they are in parrallel (like a normal car), if the converter is off power for the lights comes from the battery. Like a car alternator setup, the TU-430 will charge the battery and provide power to all 12VDC loads in the same manner as a car alternator. A ferro-resonate converter was the predecessor to todays linear and 3 stage converters.

Dave

Espiritus · May 13, 2013, 02:36 PM

I went out and painted my final primer coat, and checked the fuse box.

The main glass fuse is a big one and it is fine, as are all the others in the array. Somewhere I read that there is another fuse inside the converter itself that operates independent of the array fuses, but I can't find that reference again. The front panel of the converter will not easily come off, which begs the question of whether there is a fuse inside it.

I actually am supposed to have an isolator inverter in the battery compartment according to the paperwork I found. But there is no transfer switch to operate an inverter or to change from battery power to shore power.

Does it matter that none of the interior lights other than the drivers control panel lights work when the RV is running? I thought that all the 12v would operate during operation of the rv. . .

I pushed the test button on the GFI during the hookup and it didn't feel right. There was no noticeable click, which I seem to think would be there even if it wasn't hooked up. . .I seem to remember when I hooked one up once I played with the button before wiring it. The circuit breakers are simple rock-in's, and since there is no power coming in, I can replace them or pull them to check.

I do have the switch for front/back air conditioner. Should it be set in the middle since I am not using either of them? Would that make a difference? 15-amp hookup wouldn't allow for the Air to operate, but again, here was nothing that tripped so I suspect there is no power coming in from the plug.

I have used a voltmeter on interior plugs in my house before to check for live plugs, but never used on across wires to check for continuity or in a circuit box. I have changed circuit breakers before at my house when one burned out and while I didn't quite trust the main turn off, I am still alive so it must have worked!

I am game to try if someone is game to write out the directions, with lots of pictures! Or has that already been done here and I missed it on my search?

I know that the power source that I plugged into at the house is good. So the failure has to be at the RV.

Oh, the converter actually plugs into a common house plug located next to it, I gather for it's power. Should I unplug it? Should it be plugged in? Should it be unplugged while connecting to the shore power, then plugged in?

It is making no humming noise. Crap, I forgot to take a tester out to see if the 110 plugs in the rv work while hooked to the house. . .15-amp isn't much to play with! I'll do that now.

Thanks, folks. I do appreciate your help.

Cam

DaveVA78Chieftain · May 13, 2013, 02:51 PM

Miss Cam,
We need to divide and conquer. My recommendation is to troubleshoot the 120VAC input first. Once you have that you can then move to the 12VDC circuit. Otherwise, it's like chassing baby rabbits. Your pulled to many directions.

The short and simple: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-test-a-circuit-breaker-with-a-voltage-teste.html

If you use a voltmeter instead, you are looking for 115 - 125VAC. Connection of the meter is identical.

First breaker is the 30 amp main power breaker. That is where the shore power cable connects into the panel.

Dave

Espiritus · May 13, 2013, 03:36 PM

Went back out, with my little tester, plugged into the shore power, went in, and there was a LIGHT on in the hall

A 12v light. . .and there is HUMMING coming from the converter. . .so, now I have to THINK, what did I do before plugging back in?

When I came out a bit ago, all I did was open the 12v fuse panel, pull the fuses one by one and check them. Then I opened the circuit breaker panels, and didn't like how the GFI felt, so I rocked it out and reseated it, then I turned off all the mains, and put the air conditioner selection switch in the middle so neither were selected. And based on what Dan had said, I turned on only the main on the left breaker box, the one that has the GFI

I did nothing else.

Then I posted a note to you saying that I had forgotten to check the wall sockets to see if I had 110, so I went back out, plugged in the extension cord, plugged in the rv, walked in and. . .

SAW THE LIGHT!!!! And there is a hummmmm coming from the converter. . .

There are several circuits not working, that I will trace, but for right now, I have more than enough lights to do interior work after dark . . .

Sometimes just ASKING for help, helps!

Now if anyone knows what the switch in the back bedroom, under the furnace thermostat does, I would really appreciate it. . .and it is NOT the rear generator turn on as that is a separate switch. . .could this be for a blower? There is a strange looking blower under the bed. . .looks like a really big hair dryer. . .

Thanks all!

HandyDan · May 13, 2013, 05:07 PM

Down near the floor in the hallway, behind the toilet, and by the vacuum cleaner inlet (if you have one) are aisle/courtesy lights. The switch under the thermostat turns them on. More than likely, if they are still original, they are burnt out. This is a picture of the original ones. I would suggest replacing them with LED lights.

HandyDan · May 13, 2013, 05:13 PM

Go ahead and turn on the rest of the circuit breakers. I think you are good to go. However, if you are plugged into 15amps house power, I would leave the air conditioner switch in the middle position and I would refrain from using the microwave. Everything else should work okay, if you don't turn them all on at once. Do you have an ice maker? I'm curious if it works. Mine worked well until we went camping Labor Day. Then it just kept dumping water into the bucket where it froze in a big glob. I need to address that situation. Heck, I haven't even dewinterized it, yet.

HandyDan · May 13, 2013, 05:21 PM

As for that strange looking thing under the bed, it is a rear heater that uses cooling fluid from the motor radiator. Mine corroded to the point that it sprung a leak while I was driving down a busy highway and sprayed antifreeze all over the carpet. I took it out along with the 30 feet of rubber hose from and to the radiator. I just ran a short piece of hose to bypass where it went. There is a toggle switch on the left side of the instrument panel that turns it on or off.

ClydesdaleKevin · May 13, 2013, 07:47 PM

I have 2 switches on mine above the door that operate relays for coach and chassis power. They say "use" and "store". You might have something like that hiding in your rig. Since we are fulltimers, we leave the coach button on all the time, but when we park we turn off the chassis power...heard too many horror stories about rigs catching on fire from bad wiring jobs in the dash.

Kev

Espiritus · May 14, 2013, 01:12 AM

I really appreciate your help, and Dan, that "blow dryer" picture is exactly what I was talking about! I guess I will check the lines to make sure they are good now that I have learned from you what lurks down there!

Thanks for the info on the switch. I love those little lights and am looking forward to getting them going. Like theater lighting. . .

You have now explained a switch on the console (aux heat), a switch in the bedroom (theater lights) and the mysterious hair dryer.

Next week I'll start on the house battery hookups and since there are only cut and taped cables, this might get interesting. How many fuses do you think I will go through before i get it right?

Maybe I should start a pool. . .

No on the icemaker, it had disappeared before my time. I have the manual so there used to be one in the cabinet next to the sofa.

By the way, under your sofa, is there a plain junction box or do you have a switch? The junction box looks too new to be original, and it is just a junction box. . .I have to track down the inverter. . .and wondered if this was a place where an inverter switch used to be housed.

Thanks, again, all you wonderful folks.

M

HandyDan · May 14, 2013, 07:09 PM

If the junction box looks like this one, it is the generator connection to the air conditioner and microwave outlet. It has nothing to do with the inverter.

My inverter hides behind a screen that looks like this. It is under the right side of the couch.

The inverter has a junction box right beside it that has a power cord coming from it that plugs into the inverter. If you don't have an inverter, you probably don't have this.